Appalachian Outdoorosity

 
On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity podcast, host Dr. Joy James interviews Subaru Leave No Trace (LNT) traveling team members Haley Toy and Gary Huey. The couple shares their personal journeys into outdoor recreation, how they became passionate about the outdoors through a college experience in Yosemite, and their current work educating people on minimizing environmental impact through the LNT principles. They discuss their favorite outdoor activities, challenges, and the importance of balancing personal and professional life while working full-time together. They emphasize that Leave No Trace isn’t about perfection but about being mindful of the environment and learning through experience.
 
Notes
Haley Toy (she/her) and Gary Huey (he/him)
Subaru/Leave No Trace Traveling Team
www.LNT.org
PO Box 997 | Boulder, CO 80306
haleyandgary@lnt.org
LNT Instagram handle: @leavenotraceorg
Brendan Leonard Climbs 7 Summits … Of His Neighborhood
www.LNT.org
Subaru/Leave No Trace Traveling Teams
Kula Cloth
 
 
TRANSCRIPT
 
Becki 
Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire, and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story. The goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by The Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on the health, environment and human development. The vision of the Hope lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista. I am a professor of exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict. I'm your host for today's episode of the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. In today's episode, Dr. Joy James, a professor in recreation management, sits down with Subaru Leave No Trace traveling team members Hayley Toy and Gary Huey. Together, they delve into the core principles of Leave No Trace, reflecting on their experiences as part of the Subaru LNT traveling team and sharing insights from their own outdoor adventures. 
 
Joy 
So, welcome to Outdoorosity. I have here Leave No Trace Team Hayley and Gary, who have generously agreed to give some of their time to tell us a little bit about how they came to the outdoor space, as well as a little bit about Leave No Trace. So welcome, and thank you for being a part of this. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for having us. 
 
Haley  
Thank you. 
 
Joy 
All right. So what I'm going to do first is have you introduce yourselves kind of where you're from, and then tell us what your favorite outdoor activity is. 
 
Haley  
I can start. My name is Hayley, and I grew up in the Seattle area in Washington state. And my favorite outdoor activity right now, it's a toss up between hiking and just sitting outside in the sun and reading a good book. 
 
Joy 
I like how you said right now. It changes, doesn't it? 
 
Gary 
It does. It really does.  
 And I'm Gary and I'm from Northern California, and my favorite outdoor activity would be fishing right now. So I enjoy it. 
 
Joy 
Line fishing or fly fishing? 
 
Gary 
A little bit of both. A little bit of everything. I get out there and catch fish. I enjoy it all. 
 
Joy 
Awesome. All right. So I'm going to ask questions and as we've been doing kind of alternate back and forth. My first question for you is how did you first get interested in the outdoors? 
 
Haley  
For me, I actually had the privilege to grow up kind of being exposed to outdoor recreation specifically like national parks. So I grew up every summer. My parents were generous enough to take us, like on multiple weeklong road trips. And every summer it was like a whole list of different national parks. So that was kind of my first exposure to the outdoors. And because it came at such a young age, I think those ideas were always kind of instilled in me, whether I realized it or not. But yeah, so I guess from an early age, I had the benefit of just getting to see how much stuff there is to do outside. 
 
Gary 
And for myself, I grew up not really doing too much outside, and I played more like traditional sports, like basketball outside. But it wasn't until college where they had a semester right outside of Yosemite called High Sierra, where you spend a whole semester outside, and there's professors out. It was at like a summer camp campus. But there are the professors there and we had a cohort of like 30 to 50 other students. Through that immersive experience. I felt like I discovered a whole other world in the outdoors. And so it was a little later for me. 
 
Haley  
And that's also how we met. 
 
Gary 
And that's how we met as well. We met that semester. Exactly. I know. 
 
Haley  
So, lots of positive outcomes. 
 
Joy 
That's what I love about outdoors and recreation is that it connects people, and it is an opportunity to discover oneself as well. So I love that you explained about that immersive experience. I think a lot of people actually are comfortable in outdoor settings through sports, and they don't know about some of this other stuff that's going on, or they just think we're weird because we camp, you know, like, why would you do that? No shower. It's not until you have the experience that you're able to feel comfortable and then connect with others. So that's really cool. So my next question is what are your favorite outdoor activities? We kind of hit that at the beginning, but what are some more that you enjoy doing when you're able? 
 
Gary 
Specifically together, we have gone backpacking a bunch. We go car camping, but I feel like a goal we've had within the past only maybe 3 to 4, maybe five years, is that we’ve tried to climb like a bigger mountain or like a little goal every year. And so we've done a few of those together and usually they're overnighters. If not, you know, 1 or 2 nights. 
 
Joy 
Multi pitch type climbing or just climbing a mountain? 
 
Gary 
More so yeah, just hiking mountains. So we climbed like Mount Saint Helens and Whitney and we did the cables on Half Dome...last year maybe. And so that was really fun. 
 
Haley  
Only once a year so far. 
 
Gary 
Only once...I know. It takes some planning. 
 
Joy 
Was that inspired from this immersive experience that you had or just something you said, oh, we want to climb these mountains? 
 
Gary 
You know, it was...What do you think? 
Haley  
It was him. 
 
Gary 
I think the making of the push was I'd have these different photo books of different outdoor photographers, and I'd see all their photos, and I was like, oh, that looks really cool to do. And when you look at an image and you try to do a similar experience, you realize how much planning there is. And so once we saw that, we were like, okay, one a year would be a good goal. And so I don't know. That's where it kind of came. 
 
Haley  
It just became that. 
 
Gary 
Yeah, it kind of became that. 
 
Joy 
I just watched something where a man from Missoula, Montana did the Seven Summits...that he could see from his dog walk. 
 
Gary 
Oh, wow. Oh. 
 
Joy 
I thought that was pretty...And what he was doing, he said, you know, I don't have $140,000 to go do the Seven Summits around the world. So I'm going to make my own plan. He goes, I walk my dog all the time. And then he showed the different ways he was biking. So it was really interesting. I'll send you the link and I'll include the link in for our listeners, but I, I love how you're like, it's a goal and we do it once a year because of the amount of planning. But I think a lot of our other skills kind of lend itself towards your success, whether you actually make the climb or not. Right? Like the weather might impede or do other things for us. Since you two have different stories about how you came to the outdoors, how do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors? Like it's not always easy to go to the bathroom in the outdoors, not have a shower, be sweaty, be stinky. So how did you get comfortable in the outdoors? 
 
 Haley  
Not to keep like pumping up this experience that we had during our semester in college in the Sierras, but for me, that really was how I became comfortable in the outdoors. Part of that semester experience. Is that you...I don't want to say you're forced, but you are required to...I felt like I was forced at the time...to go on a backpacking trip in the backcountry of Yosemite, and one of them was in the dead of winter. So it was like late January, maybe early February. That was my very first backpacking trip. And I can't even describe to you how terrified I was. Gary knows because I still talk about it all the time. And everyone also at the time knew. I mean, that was like the one hindrance for me and why I almost didn't participate in that semester program. he morning of we were supposed to leave and I just, I guess, physically made myself sick, like, I, I don't know how my body did it, but I gave myself like, a fever and all of its other symptoms because of out of fear, just because it was so unlike anything that I had ever experienced or thought that I was capable of. Because I had grown up very front country focus, outdoor experiences. We weren't camping out in the backcountry or anything like that. So this was totally new. But getting thrown into it and not really having a choice made me realize that I could do it. And there were a lot of other people like me who that was their first time. You know, for some reason, in my mind, I felt like I was the only person who wouldn't know what they were doing. But we were all really in the same boat, including Gary. 
 
Gary 
It was my first time camping.. 
 
Joy 
I was going to say, it wasn’t even car camping. You were backpacking 40lbs! Crazy! 
 
Haley  
In the snow. Yes. It's very. Yeah. Now that we look back and it's like, oh that wasn't really like an easy way to ease into it, but it threw us in. We both fell in love with it. That was the first time in my life that I really felt the feeling of overcoming something difficult or scary for me, and it's a really addicting feeling. So I think that's carried over to like these mountains that we have tried to hike to the top of. It's carried over to like adopting new hobbies and stuff like that. But I try to chase that feeling that I first felt. 
 
Joy 
Yeah. Gary, for you? 
 
Gary 
Yeah. For myself. How did I become comfortable? I'd say just from going outside so much or spending more time outside, even when I didn't necessarily know what I was maybe doing or if I was doing things, you know, the quote unquote best way, I guess. I remember, like, I think a year after we met, you took me on a road trip to a few national parks. I'd never been on a road trip. I had just, you know, from that semester, learned how to camp. And so I was like, sure, that sounds fun. And I didn't know necessarily what to pack or what to bring, but I just brought whatever I had in college and I think after that road trip, it really was the proof of just, you know, getting out there and bringing whatever you have and making it work. And the more I did it, I felt like the more I kind of knew from the past experience, oh, like, I have this or I liked that, that I had that. And so just doing it a bunch, I feel like, helped me get familiar. 
 
Joy 
Gary, you mentioned you'd played sports and were comfortable outside. Haley, you talked about going to parks and just kind of hanging. I'm going to be specific with you, Haley. Just because women have a different experience in some, in some cases not to ostracize you in any way, Gary. So, did you play sports? Did you have any reason to be outside in your home that would have made you comfortable or friends or like, or is it just really the parks, going on, the road trips that kind of piqued your interest? 
 
Haley  
Yeah, it was really probably these trips that piqued my interest. I did not grow up playing any sports or doing any hobbies outside. totally different. I grew up in dance and musical theater. 
 
Joy 
Yeah. So. And that's fine. So the research shows particularly that it's harder for women sometimes to get involved in the outdoors because of, you know, again, bathroom, shower or animals, insects, weather. And when women and men, or boys and girls play sports, they're kind of used to being uncomfortable and sweaty. And as you are too, as a dancer or in theater, you know, but it was just a different sort of challenge. And so it was wonderful, Gary, to hear you say, hey, just getting out there and doing it, trying it, failing forward, making mistakes. and now I'm sure as Leave No Trace trainers, you have a lot of expertise that you didn't have or you didn't start with. And I think sometimes people get intimidated because it's just too much and yet they don't want to make a mistake. So it's just interesting that you said, hey, the more you do it, the more comfortable you'll become. So this may kind of add on or you may have another story here. but I'm looking for a story that you might have that has influenced you. It could be a funny story. Ha, ha. Like I did this, or it could be something that you learned a lesson, and it's changed how you've done things in your life or in the outdoors. Do either of you have some stories that you would be willing to share with our listeners? 
 
Haley  
I could think of like a bunch of 'em, but, I'll share one that comes to mind. He might have the same story too, but fishing has become one of our favorite things to do outside. And I guess kind of the inverse of like the time that we had spent outside. Gary, actually, you did spend time outside because he had spent time fishing a little bit as a kid, but I had never had that experience, and I have always wanted to. I've always been really interested in it and just, I don't know, never was in the right place at the right time to have someone teach me and have all the stuff and the ideal conditions and things like that. But through this job, I think one of the best positive experiences of this job is the people that we have been able to build relationships with in all different parts of the country and all different walks of life. We've made a lot of really amazing friends through this experience, and one of those friends was someone that was able to expose us to fishing, or my first time fishing, which was in Grand Teton National Park. 
 
Joy 
Wow, what a place to start! 
 
Haley  
I know. We were spoiled. I know. He worked at one of the lodges inside of the park, and we had done some work with him through Leave No Trace, became friends and he was generous enough to take us out on a boat, you know, with the picturesque Tetons in the background. And, just him and his friends were able to teach me at least all the basics. And that feeling of catching your first fish, similar to, you know, going backpacking for the first time. But it was just really empowering and it was just something that I, I don't. It's not common for me that I know nothing about something, but want to learn everything about it. And fishing was that thing for me. And so I got really excited to learn more about it since then, and we have not stopped. 
 
Joy 
Do you have a bunch of gear now? 
 
Haley  
Yes, too much. 
 
Gary 
Too much gear. Side note though, we were on that boat with, I think one of his friends was like a fishing guide, and so he knew exactly where to go and what lures to use. And we were catching fish, like, pretty, pretty frequently. And I told Haley, like, this is not like normal fishing where you have to wait a long time. And we went out a few days later to go fishing and fishing out there was just so good. I said, this is not this is not normal. And so that definitely has a special I learned within our own. Yeah, that was a special, special experience for sure. 
 
Joy 
Well and Gary has such a good point. Like sometimes when you start something new you want some successes and then there's some reality like, Haley might not have been hooked if she hadn't caught a fish where she was like oh this is cool. 
 
Haley  
I don’t think I would have. 
 
Joy 
Yeah. So that's the other thing, too. When I think about how to prime activities for people who are new is like, how can I help them find that little bit of success? Like, I remember backpacking with my nephew and he was 12 and he couldn't believe he made it to the top of the mountain with the backpack on. And we were eating lunch and it was like nothing like what you're doing out the Tetons. It was this little trail up the Pisgah National Forest, and that was such a success for him that he didn't know, like you said, about backpacking, you didn't know you could do it until you did it. 
 
Haley  
Exactly. Yeah. That's awesome. 
 
Joy 
How about you, Gary? Any story you're willing to share that's influenced you or. Funny. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. So in general I'm a very go with the flow kind of person. And so when we're on those road trips I'll just go with the flow and like have to have don't have what I don't have. But one of our trips we went backpacking and we had to canoe to the campsite. 
 
Haley  
I knew this is what you... 
 
Gary 
Haha Okay. Good. And, you know, I guess it was just from pure lack of experience though. I was like, Okay, like, this is gonna be great. We're going to go backpacking and be on the lake and whatnot. But then what we didn't realize is that we didn't plan to have, like, a water filter, and there's no place to get water other than filtering your own water. And we brought one kind of meal. And then midway through, Haley was like, we're not gonna have enough water to get back. And I said, no, like, we should be fine. And, quickly to realize we probably weren't gonna have enough water to get back. And it all turned out fine because we ran into some people who lent us their water filter, which is super kind of them. But all that to say, when we got back, I think that's when I learned the importance of planning ahead and kind of like mapping out what you might need. And I feel like if it wasn't for that experience, I probably would have been more go with the flow and probably would have gotten in, you know, worse scenarios. And so that's one I always will cherish. 
 
Joy 
That's such an important piece, right? Like it's an experience you have to have to inform how you are now. And I will tell you, I still do dumb things, but I'm always like, I hope nobody sees me doing this. I'm a professor and I should know better than to do this. And so I think sometimes as you get more expertise, you become a little more, maybe complacent, or you're like, oh, I can get away with it. And I've done stuff like that. Even having been doing it for 20 or 30 years. So, the thing that I love about your story too, is the sharing of the community, how you've met some people, told them your situation, and they were willing to help you out. And that's what I found myself. It's the wonderful community of people. And thankfully, you were able to find somebody and then make it home. 
 
Gary 
They were too nice. 
 
Haley  
They even fed us too! They were way more prepared than us. 
 
Becki 
Isn't it fascinating how Haley and Gary discuss how immersing themselves in a semester outdoors at Yosemite National Park helped them grow comfortable with nature. They emphasize that simply getting outside and engaging with the environment aids and developing that comfort. Furthermore, they highlight how their work with LNT has facilitated connections with fellow outdoor enthusiasts who are eager to share new experiences, such as fishing. Today's episode is proudly sponsored by the Hope lab. At the Hope lab, we're committed to finding creative ways to promote outdoor activity. Visit appstate.hopelab.edu to explore the myriad of benefits of spending time outdoors. Let's return to the interview to delve deeper into their roles as part of the Subaru LNT traveling teams. 
 
Joy 
I wanted to kind of move into your job and what you're doing. I mentioned that you were the Leave No Trace Subaru Team. Is that the title to call you? 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
And if you could kind of share what Leave No Trace is and what your job is, we'd appreciate it. 
 
Haley  
Sure. Well, Leave No Trace is actually. Well, the name of it actually comes from an organization which a lot of people don't realize. You know, I think many of us, including us, like when we went on our first backpacking trip, we were taught the concept of Leave No Trace. But we never knew that it actually, you know, the curriculum was being written and put out there by an organization. So that is the organization that we now work for. And essentially our mission is just to get information and education out there and providing resources for people to understand how to minimize their impact when it comes to outdoor recreation specifically. So as one of the Subaru Leave No Trace teams, we really are the people who are like in motion doing that, living it out every single day for the past three years. And, so a lot of what our job looks like is a combination of teaching formal workshops and Leave No Trace trainings for land managers for a student like AmeriCorps, type of youth Conservation corps, university students, even high school, elementary school, and all age students. We also could be setting up a booth and just doing outreach on a more casual level at festivals and events. We just over the past weekend came from PCT days in Oregon for the Pacific Crest Trail thru hikers or other hikers. And, so events like that sometimes will go to festivals and other things and just try to talk to people about what Leave No Trace means to them. 
 
Gary 
So a lot. 
 
Haley  
Yeah, yeah a lot. 
 
Joy 
Are you crisscrossing the country or do you have an area that you focus in? 
 
Haley  
Pretty crisscross. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. I think it depends on the year. Like I feel like our first few years...more locational. We wouldn't cross too much. But this past year we crossed a lot. We were in Vermont and Florida, and now we’re in the Pacific Northwest. 
 
Haley  
It just depends. But we could be anywhere at any time. We're not limited to a region or anything like that. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
Okay. Do you plan it or does the Leave No Trace organization say, here are the things that we need you to go. Like, how is that being planned for you? Or are you planning? 
 
Gary 
Leave No Trace kind of has a calendar of events and places we need to be and when we need to be there. 
 
Haley  
Which is very nice because there's a lot of... 
 
Gary 
Very nice. 
 
Haley  
...logistics behind the scenes that our manager thank goodness for her. She does a lot of that back end work. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
Yeah. And is three years an average or does usually people work one year and they're gone. What does that look like for the organization? 
 
Haley  
It's a mix I think it ranges. So when you first get offered the position, it's a one year contract. And from there you know you can choose, between the two of you, you can choose to continue on or not. And so we just have continued on. 
 
Gary 
I feel like a lot of people though, do it for, you either do it for one year or you do it for like 3 or 4 years. I think the longest someone's ever done it, I think, is seven years. I want to say that that was the longest, but... 
 
Haley  
Which I don’t think we'll get to. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
I just assumed it was a one year gig and... 
 
Haley  
So a lot of people will do it right after graduating and or, you know, during a transition in career or something like that. Which is awesome that people can get that experience. And then others, I think, use it, as a, as a stepping stone or a foundation for their career in the outdoor industry. Which is kind of more where we ended up going. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
Oh no. That's, I'm, I'm glad to hear that. Well the next thing I wanted to know was how like, so it sounds like you were introduced to Leave No Trace on that backpacking trip that was kind of foundational. So how did you become interested in wanting to teach and train people about it? What's the story behind your story? 
 
Gary 
Yeah, I feel like after that whole experience and learning that Leave No Trace, I feel like it was mostly from wanting to continue being in the outdoor industry. And we saw that this specific year that we saw the position they had, they're emphasizing a kind of digital education as well. And so I have a background in photography. Hayley has a background in graphic design. And, we've always wanted to work in the outdoor industry. We thought that our skills would, you know, mesh well together for the different kind of education of also seeing things online and videos. And so we thought that our skill set personally would be effective there. But being able to mesh that in with our like, personal interests that had become and rooted from that experience, it was kind of like, a perfect fit or like a dream come true in some way of being able to have that opportunity. And so, yeah, we're super lucky. 
 
Haley  
Weren’t Expecting it. 
 
Gary 
Yeah, we weren't expecting it. We didn't know about it. 
 
Joy 
Well, how did you find out about it? Was it a professor or did you see the job come across? Like, how does one find out about this? 
 
Gary 
It was so random. We were doing our own gigs, but we saw it on a Facebook group called Base Camp Outdoors, where they post a lot of outdoor opportunities. And so we it just was on our Facebook feed, and we saw it there, and I texted it over to Haley saying, we should, we should, we should apply for this. And she was like, yeah, sure. And I was like, No. Really we should try! 
 
Haley  
We should try but I don't think we're going to get it. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. Sounded like one of those positions where everyone probably applies and you never hear back, but they look at everyone's applications and yeah, the rest is history after that I guess. 
 
Joy 
Haley, this sounds like a perfect gig for you having road trips all your life. And then as y'all were together learning road trips for Gary, and now you're on the permanent road trip right now. 
 
Haley  
Totally. I know it's been...we've been really, really fortunate. And it was always a pipe dream, at least for me. And I never really...I was scared to tell anyone, you know, that something I would always want to do is like, spend some time on the road, cross country, ideally with a partner or, you know, someone that I feel comfortable being with 24 seven. But I just never even fathomed that that would be a reality. Especially as a career or, you know, so it was definitely a dream come true. 
 
Joy 
Well that's just I've, I've known about this again for years and just always been like, wow, this is such a cool thing for like you said, young people or people in transition from careers. So, I know that people are going to want to know what the skinny is or what it's like working on the Subaru team? Y'all are partners. You're together 24/7. What are things you wish you'd known, and what advice would you give to somebody who maybe wanting to do this and with their partner? 
 
Haley  
That's a great question. 
 
Gary 
Good question. Yeah. 
 
Haley  
People don’t ask that enough. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
I know I’m making you think too. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Haley  
Well, I think something that we learned very early on was the importance of separating our working relationship and our personal relationship, which is very difficult and still an ongoing process multiple years later. But I think we just learned because this was our experience...you know, we had been in a relationship together for several years before this. So we felt like we knew each other very well. But working together and not just working, you know, at the same company, but like under the same title, you share an email, you're doing absolutely everything together. That was a whole new learning experience. And seeing each other's like, working tendencies and just even personality over, like, communication with other people in a professional sense. We're just different, different people who work differently. And so that was a little bit of a challenge to try and put that, hone all of that in and, and make it effective as a unit. That being said, just trying...It took us a long time, but just trying to figure out as best we can to still find time to be Haley and Gary, the individual people versus Haley, Gary, the Subaru Leave No Trace Team. And so we, I guess like how that manifested is just us trying to find time as much as we can to just separate ourselves from the work, because you just have to because I think this is a job that if you're not mindful, you could...The work life balance could very quickly diminish. And I think Leave No Trace is very... and all of our managers and things like that, They’re very mindful and encouraging us to have a work life balance, which is great. But just the reality, you know, this job is very all consuming. So, very immersive. So having to be intentional for time together, but also alone time. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. Yeah. You don't really think about when you're together having a alone time on the road as well. 
 
Haley  
You need it. 
 
Gary 
So finding your own hobby of what can you do, you know, for this part of the day right there. But doing it separate like doing separate things and so. 
 
Haley  
Or just driving. Yeah. Like long long car days and just saying okay, we're not going to talk to each other for the next four hours and we're just going to do our own thing. 
 
Gary 
But you need that because in real life, I feel like you never are always with somebody, you know, no matter where you go and what you do. And so trying to add that bit of normalcy of life and independence, I guess, or individuality, not independence. 
 
Haley  
Yes, but there are like, I feel like we're not to put a damper on all of it. There are a lot of positives to working with your partner in this sense. And we've been reflecting on this a lot lately, you know, just as it's been a few years now of doing it. But to be able to share all of these experiences with someone, or to have to do it by yourself could be a very isolating experience. And so the fact that our lives are like, so intertwined and, you know, we could just say something about any part of our life. And the other person just knows the full context of that. 
 
Joy 
Yeah. 
 
Haley  
It’s really special and rare. And we're learning to appreciate that too. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
Yeah. Well, I appreciate your candor. I think it's, you know, obviously you're communicating very well and you and sometimes it would pay for everyone to be together for 24 hours because we treat each other a little differently than when we get separated. At the same time, to be able to be in the same space and say, I'm not going to talk to you is it's it's not being rude. It's giving people their, their, their opportunities to decompress and be who they are. I think too the identity is important. Like I'm Joy, I could be a partner. I could be a mother, I could be a friend. There's all these different identities at play and you all have merged identities. And that separation is so important. 
 
Haley  
Yes. 
 
Joy 
You bring that up. Well. 
 
Haley  
People combine our names into one all the time. They mix them up. Yeah. 
 
Joy 
Yeah. Well, it was funny. Your emails, Haley and Gary. And I was like, well, I think she's speaking for both of them, but I didn't, you know, it's just interesting, right? Because you kind of are manifested as one team, which it's. Yeah, it's a good thing. And, I, I'm always interested how people can be together, like you’re being together and we when we’re outdoors on backpacking trips, you know, that’s a 24/7 thing but you still can manage to get outside of it. Whereas when you’re in a car, you don’t have that. And if you’re mad at each other. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
It's a whole nother, thing to work through. So. But we all go down that path. I just was curious. Because I think if I saw the job description, you have to when you apply, you apply as a pair, right? It could be two friends. It could be a couple. It's just you have to be ready to be together. Is that kind of the process? 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
Haley  
Yeah for sure. And they I think they really look out for you know, they really want to see your dynamic between the two of you. And you don't necessarily have to be in a romantic relationship or a partnership or anything like that. You just have to know that you are consenting to spending 24/7 with that person. I remember one of our interview questions, which was really interesting question. They asked us to describe the other person’s strengths and weaknesses. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Haley  
So, that was unique and was, you know, speaks to either wow well or well we knew each other. 
 
Joy 
All right. Well, this is an opportunity, this next segment for you to share what you think, the top Leave No Trace tips are. Now I know, leave no trace. Wonderful. There's all kinds. There's front country. There's backcountry. But let's imagine that our audience is kind of new to this idea of Leave No Trace. I know there's the principals. Is there something like, if we had to hit something home, what would be the top two things you'd want to say about Leave No Trace for the listeners to know or what's the education moment that you would want to give on this podcast to help people better understand, Leave No Trace and be able to practice it? 
 
Gary 
That’s a great question. 
 
Joy 
As yall are thinking, what I can say to the audience is, we'll put the Leave No Trace website up and as I mentioned before, there's this I think it's still seven principles. Yes. And it applies to the front country or the backcountry. And that was a new concept to me about ten years ago. I was like, oh my gosh, that's awesome. 
 
Haley  
I've got one that maybe is going to become two. I think that we, you know, we interact with and meet people every single day and talk about Leave No Trace with people, every single day. And so a lot of times we have experienced people, just being a little bit stressed or anxious about the idea of Leave No Trace and just the idea behind these seven principles. You'll see it, whether it's a land management agency listing out the principles on a sign or in a brochure or you see it online or something like that. And I think it has the potential to be daunting or like an information overload, even especially for someone who is maybe doing something specific for the first time or or they're just generally new to it. It is a lot of information, on a lot of different topics. And I think we just try to tell people, don't stress about it. And the goal, the goal isn't to feel like you have to be this perfect model of a Leave No Trace, you know, perfect angel. But it's really just understand the potential environmental impact that we could be making on natural spaces. And we always try to tell people, Leave No Trace. We're not trying to tell people, like, exactly how to live your life, but it's really just we want to be providing these resources and providing this framework so that when you go outside, you will be more informed in your decision making process, whether that's choosing to pick up your trash or pick up someone else's trash. 
 
Haley  
That's a very high level one. But, yeah, just trying to diminish the intimidation behind it, I guess, and let people know the information is there for you. And I think that's like, we want everyone to have the information, but we don't want anyone to be more intimidated by the outdoors because of Leave No Trace. 
 
Gary 
True. 
 
Joy 
That’s a great point. Even now I kind of like I judge myself. and so I hadn't thought about it from that perspective that, hey, this is not intended to make it more, more onerous to be outside. It really is just a resource. It's something it's a guideline. And if you can practice it as best you can, that's great. There's going to be times where you may not or you might forget and, that's that failing forward again. 
 
Haley  
Exactly, exactly. 
 
Gary 
Which I feel like is a big piece of Leave No Trace as well. Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say too. So I have to think of a tip, Haley.  
 
Joy 
That's another example of the two of you thinking like mind meld. 
 
Gary 
I think that actually happens. We can kind of know what the other person is going to say. 
 
Haley  
We just are one being sometimes. 
No, you go ahead. 
 
Gary 
No, I'm. I'm trying to think of what now because... 
 
Joy 
Well, okay. I'm going to do one for you. 
 
Haley  
Oh you do one! 
 
Joy 
What about when I have to go to the bathroom in the woods? What's the biggest tip I can know about that? 
 
Haley  
Good question. For solid waste. So for poop, the biggest thing, if you had to headline it and people had like .001 seconds to consume information, which sometimes they do is just when in doubt, pack it out. I guess, you know, to not have to worry about, can I dig a cat hole? Do I have the proper materials? How is the soil? If any of that is troublesome at all, it's best to just pack everything out, including your waste, including the toilet paper. yeah. That's always just, like, the safest, safest bet. 
 
Gary 
Yeah, so I was going to say, I know, to add on to what you're saying, as I said. Yeah, you have to look up the local regulations, but you're right. Like, if you don't have time or if you're in a place where you don't even know who manages the land, I think that that's a good overarching kind of idea to have in your head or rhyme. A little rhyme to have in your head is When in doubt. Pack it out. Because yeah, wherever you are, packing it out is a great option as well. And you know that's okay there. 
 
Haley  
So and same with trash or like food waste too. That's one of our most common questions is people have specific questions about organic food waste like orange peels or banana peels, apple cores. And I don't know, I think people spend a lot of time wondering if they can or can't. And to us it's like, well, if you have to spend that long thinking about whether it's going to harm the environment or not, probably just in that amount of time, you could just pack it out. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
Yeah. So as you're talking, I remembered I had a Leave No Trace course probably about 20 years ago, it's out in the field and it was my first exposure to the idea of not having a campfire. Because I'd always gone camping, always had a campfire. I'd never thought about the consequences to the dirt or the soil or the organisms that lived in the soil. So, you know, the Leave No Trace person was bringing out their candle, and we had a little and I was like, that's not a campfire. I just totally resisted it. And I think initially, too, I totally resisted packing out human waste. because I didn't quite…again, this is probably the 90s, and I had grown up in a different, different way. And now it's not the same. But it was. I should remember being resistant a little bit to it. And now I have my students who show me how you can have your Nalgene bottle and put your half headlamp on it and get the glowy light. And that's, you know, the idea is to have community around the fire, the light. And, so that's how far I've come with Leave No Trace in 20 years is that I'm now like, oh, no fire, no problem. Oh, to pack it out. Yeah, I get it. No problem. But the initial adoption of it, I remember being a little. What? I'm sure you get that. Now if people are like what? 
 
Gary 
Totally. 
 
Haley  
Yes, that's awesome that you had that growing experience. 
 
Gary 
Were there any other things of Leave No Trace that were kind of surprising to you or, like you said, a little resistant to at first, but shifted over or not shifted over? 
 
Joy 
Really it was the campfire because, and I think you bring up a good point, Gary. I had an idea of what I thought camping or backpacking was. And I remember fondly sitting by a campfire. and it never occurred to me that I was doing damage. So, that kind of was an educational thing. More recently, you'll have my students who just roll their eyes because I talk about dog poop and how we need to be picking it up. And, that 20, 25 years ago was not something that was being done front country or backcountry. Trying to explain to people that, you know, there are these, you know, they're eating manufactured food that has different things, you know, the whole line.But I it it did take me a while because, you know, dogs like you said about organic Haley, you know, orange peels. Oh, we forget that there's pesticides or there's stuff on it that's being put into the natural environment. So it's been over the years that I’ve started to realize the why behind the pack it out. And you can't always get that why in the first meeting. But as you or at least I've found, as I've grown more interested and engaged in the outdoors, I understand the why and I'm more receptive to listening to it. 
 
Haley  
That’s a great testament to our goal, you know. 
You couldn't have said it better. Yeah. Just trying to get people, all of us, you know, even us. We're still constantly trying to understand the why behind certain things. But you're totally right in that once you do understand the why, that changes everything. 
 
Joy 
Yeah. 
 
Haley  
And that also just speaks to like when we see someone who is maybe doing something that, in our opinion, or maybe we wouldn't do, we like to give the benefit of the doubt and just think, you know, there's a lot of people who have not had the opportunity to learn the why, whether that's through the resources available to them or just the education opportunities. 
So try not to assume that people are purposefully harming the environment. And in most cases, we'd like to believe that they're not doing it. 
 
Gary 
Yes, but. 
 
Joy 
Haley, that's such another great point. Like, often people haven't had the same opportunities or they've had different. And I had never connected it with that's the why. Like knowing the why helps me to to implement to the best of my abilities. Some of the Leave No Trace. So great, great point. 
 
Becki 
Haley's insights into the challenges newcomers face with Leave No Trace resonates deeply. She underscores the value of doing your best and not allowing the fear of not perfectly adhering to the principles to hinder your enjoyment of the outdoors responsibly. Additionally, Joy's personal journey with LNT demonstrates how grasping the underlying reasons behind its principles can enhance your ability to put them into practice effectively. Let's get back to the interview for our segment, Getting the Dirt on Haley and Gary's experiences in the outdoors. 
 
Joy 
Well, I could talk to you all forever, and I know you've got other things you need to be doing. I have a few more questions, and what I'll do is sort of like a rapid fire thing, and we call it Getting the Dirt. Often we've interviewed people here who are local to App State. So if I ask you questions that are local, go ahead and pick somewhere where you want to be, because our listeners, we want to encourage people to get out in the Boone area. 
So if they kind of know about a location they can go to. Well, for you, we're going to say the sky's the limit and we might then aspire to get to where y'all have been. So the first question is, what is your biggest fear in the outdoors? 
 
Gary 
So I feel like I know your worst fear better than I know my own worst fear Yeah. Your worst fear is running out of food. 
 
Haley  
Oh yeah. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. That's your biggest. Well, mine is probably, like running out of gas because we drive in so many... 
 
Haley  
He’s very paranoid about it. 
 
Gary 
... areas where we don't see gas stations for, like, maybe 100 miles. 
 
Haley  
Fine. 
 
Joy 
If you all have half a tank and no food, there's a problem. 
 
Gary 
Oh, yeah. 
 
 Joy 
All right, so what is an embarrassing outdoor moment that you've had? 
 
Gary 
I know mine. 
 
Haley  
I know yours too. 
Gary 
Oh, do you know, mine? Well, we were, we had a program with the Access Fund. I have never said this story either, which is crazy how you know. So the Access Fund, help restore, like, trails to climbing areas or climbing crags and whatnot. And so the climbing stewards offered to take us climbing one day and we were like, oh, that's so awesome. Like, we have some climbing gear. Because we climb. We’ve gym climbed a lot and climbed some outdoors, but we wouldn't consider ourselves climbers right? We climb but we are not climbers. So we’re like, oh yeah. We'll go crack climbing in Indian Creek, and I put my harness on upside down. And that was one of the most embarrassing things because it had been in storage for a while, you know. I was the first one to go up and in front of all of these experts, I like I put my climbing harness upside down and they are like, oh, I think it's upside down. And I was just so mortified. 
 
Haley  
What's really sad about that is like, we had just spent the whole winter climbing pretty regularly in a gym. I feel like you definitely. 
 
Gary 
I know. I know how to tie my knots. I know how to climb. 
 
Haley  
It was out of anxiety I guess. 
 
Gary 
Maybe I was, yeah, a little shy in front of them. It was so embarrassing. 
 
Joy 
I feel that pain. That's something I would do. 
 
Haley  
I don't have any embarrassing stories. 
Gary 
You don’t have any?! 
 
Haley  
I mean, I think I can only think of when I am able to hook on to a fish. Like there's no specific moment, but when I hook on to a fish, because I'm still new to it, and I think it's just part of my personality, I tend to get a little loud. 
 
Gary 
Overreact a little. 
 
Haley  
I tend to scream a little bit, and sometimes I'm still working on being brave enough to pick up the fish and hold it. And so like sometimes if other people are there or if other people see from a distance, yeah. I just really freak out. I guess. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Haley  
Oh, or when I have a bite, but I lose the fish. That's really embarrassing for me. 
 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Haley  
Sometimes if we’re fishing in really remote areas, I'm not great at practicing. principle number seven. “Be considerate of others.” 
 
Joy 
Well, those are perfect. So much happens to us in outdoor settings and yet the community still went out there and climbed. You still are out there fishing, and pushing through that embarrassment. I think it helps others to see that Oh, I'm human. I'm going to make mistakes or I'm going to have something happen. And then and Haley, you're talking about this. I'm a beginner. And so I, you know, I have other things that are going on like. I can tell you, I will not take a hook off of a fish. I don't like it. I don't want to put a worm. I don't want to put a worm on the hook. 
 
Gary 
Yeah I didn’t either. 
 
Joy 
But if there's a kid there, I'll do it. But if there's no other kids, I'm like, you do it. And because I want to show I could do this, but it's like, oh, I'm very squeamish about it. So I think also as beginners, that's when our most embarrassing moments occur or and Gary, you kind of clarified was like, we're climbers, but we're not climbers. So we dabble in these activities and so sometimes our nerves could be a little bit up here and we’re not paying attention to down here. That's perfectly normal. That’s why I like to see what other people's embarrassing moments are. Between the two of you, you can answer as one, or you can answer as individuals. What is your must have piece of outdoor equipment that you never leave home without? Like if you were in the outdoors, what did you have to have equipment wise in order to feel like you have what you need? 
 
Haley  
There's a lot. 
 
Gary 
There is a lot. 
 
Haley  
So how many can we list? Put to the top of this one? 
 
Gary 
I can answer. I know mine. Mine's actually pretty basic though. Mine is and this is what I kind of have told my family to. And they're kind of wondering like, what should I pack? Like what jacket? I always say, and what I do with myself, is that I always bring, like, my thickest down jacket that I can compress a little bit smaller anywhere I go, just to have that like sense of peace, of mind, of yeah, no matter how cold it gets, I at least have like The warmest Jacket I own. So, I feel like no matter where I go, what I do, if I don't really know. Because, you know, it's kind of hard to tell the weather in some areas, like, you know, the exact area that we're going to be camping or backpacking, too. I always bring my warmest, like, down jacket just to have that peace of mind. So yeah. Yeah, absolutely. 
 
Haley  
I guess mine would be probably my Kula cloth which, if anyone does not know what that is, it is a well, it's one brand of a reusable pee cloth. I have a bunch of them now. And just recently I got a custom Leave No Trace Kulah cloth, which is my new favorite, but it's, mainly, well, anyone can use it, but for women who need to pee and you don't have toilet paper or toilet. It's kind of an antimicrobial pee cloth. And you can clip it onto your backpack or, I don't know, keep it folded in your pocket. They come in all different fun patterns, and especially in our job. And because we're camping so much like every night, I bring it in the tent with me and it's right by my head. So that when I have to go in the middle of the night or first thing in the morning, I bring it on hikes. I bring it literally anywhere. 
 
Gary 
Yeah, it doesn't smell at all, it's super nice. 
 
Haley  
And you can wash them. 
 
Joy 
I've never ...I've never heard of them. I'm going to go look it up. 
Haley  
Yes. It's K-U-L-A. 
 
Gary 
You la go okay, okay. Like, you. 
 
Haley  
Know, they're based they're actually based out in Washington state. and they're really great and Leave No Trace did a lot of work with them as well to get Leave No Trace messaging out there, but. 
 
Gary 
I had to go. 
 
Haley  
Meet them. Yeah, they're really fun. They come in all different patterns and stuff. 
 
Joy 
I'll look it up and I'll put it on the website for our listeners as well. One last question. What's your favorite local spot like? If you could just go anywhere, daily or once a year, what where is it that you're going to tend to go? 
 
Gary 
Is that so many places? Yeah, I love the... 
 
Joy 
Yeah. Do you even have, like, is there a home base for you? No, you're just all over. So what kind of space do you like when you get to these places? What are you gravitating towards as, like that decompress or what do you need to separate or. You're in the same area, but you might go to the lake and you might go on a hike. What kind of spaces do you need to be able to reconnect with who you are? 
 
Haley  
That's a good question. Yeah, I would go pretty much anywhere in the state of Wyoming. I'm in Wyoming. I'd be happy, but I just think it's beautiful. We spent a good amount of time there throughout our travels, and I just think it has the perfect blend of mountains and wide open spaces. And granted, I have not spent much time there in the winter. So I guess in my ideal situation, it's summer there. 
 
Gary 
For me, this is actually probably not a local spot, but it's kind of a new place that I really enjoy nowadays. because we talk a lot about fish. We have talked a lot about fishing. this past hour, but we mostly had done trout fishing at first. But when we were in Florida this past year, we had done a lot of saltwater fishing and specifically a pier and bridge, saltwater fishing. And so that whole pier. So it didn't have to be in Florida, but going to appear Outer Banks the Outer Banks. Even in California, Washington, they have a lot of piers and just that community of, you know, everyone's sharing knowledge and information. And it's a really relaxing time, I'd say, to go fishing. So I like pier fishing a lot. 
 
Haley  
It's way less stressful than, like, trout fishing. 
Gary 
Yeah. 
 
Joy 
What's so interesting that you bring that up to my cousin's son? And my cousin and her husband are not outdoor people, and he is a young kid. So I'll show you the cartoon character, go fishing or something like that. And he's like, mom, take me fishing. And it's the same sort of idea. He he has been educated by this community where he was going out in Chicago, at the lakes or the piers to be able to, and, again, such an eloquent way of saying, you know, you can come in and be a part of a community without ever knowing these people because you love fishing. 
 
Gary 
You have a commonality. Totally. Yeah. 
 
Joy 
Oh, thank you both for your time. It was interesting to see how your professional brains work, and then kind of get to know you as a personality. We appreciate your time. 
 
Gary 
Yeah, I thank you. 
 
Becki 
As we wrap up this episode, we want to share some resources for you. Check out this episode's notes page for resources on Leave No Trace, Kula Cloths and how to join the LNT Traveling Team. We extend our heartfelt gratitude to Haley and Gary for sharing their invaluable insights and stories with us. The Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast is the brainchild of Melissa Weddle, Becki Batiste, and Joy James. Special thanks to our dedicated podcast producer, Dave Blanks from App State University Communications for his exceptional work behind the scenes. We leave with you the following quote by Chief Seattle. "Take only memories. Leave only footprints."  
 
 

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Management and Physical Education, interviews App State graduate, Grayson Smith. Outward Bound plated a pivotal role in Grayson's outdoor and personal development. Throughout Grayson's time in the program they faced setbacks and challenges in the outdoors and learned with the help of a community to believe in themselves and persevere. Topics covered include building community, emotional vulnerability, the fun scale and the power of journaling.
Show Notes
Outdoorosity Team Email: podcasts@appstate.edu
Pronouns: they/himSchool email: smithgh@appstate.edu Instagram: ghsmith15
Outward Bound
North Carolina Outward Bound
Blue Ridge Parkway Overlooks and Trails
Journaling Ideas
 
 
Transcript
 
Becki
Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire, and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story. The goal… to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by The Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on the health, environment and human development. The vision of The Hope Lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista. I'm a professor in exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict. I'm your host for today's episode of the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. On today's episode, team member doctor Joy James, a professor in recreation management, interviews App State recent graduate Grayson Smith where they tell us how their Outward Bound experience inspired them, and they have come full circle working for Outward Bound.
 
Joy
Hi, I'm Joy here with Grayson. Thank you for joining us, Grayson.
 
Grayson
Yeah, I'm really excited to be here.
 
Joy
If you could introduce yourself, kind of tell us where you're from and what your favorite outdoor activity is.
 
Grayson
Yeah. So my name is Grayson Smith. I use they/he pronouns, I identify as trans mask. I grew up in Raleigh. Atlanta until I was about six. And then Raleigh. I call Boone home now. I've been here almost five years. Oh, gosh. Favorite outdoor activity? There's so many things I could say. I've gotten really into climbing over the past few years. That was something that I used to be pretty scared of as a teenager. And, being in the rec program here at App has really helped me, reopen up to that, that activity and, kind of push those fears away.
 
Joy
Cool. Glad to hear that. How did you first get interested in the outdoors?
 
Grayson
So I went to a high school in Raleigh that required us to go on an outbound trip as freshmen. I had never heard of Outward Bound. I had never really. I never understood that there was an outdoor industry. I didn't really go hiking as a kid. I grew up in two major cities. two major capital cities. I just didn't. I wasn't really exposed to recreation until I got to high school and went on this Outward Bound trip with my freshman class, and I was the only student that enjoyed it. And I kind of kept that to myself. I was like, ooh, this bugs and camp. Ooh, gross dirt, you know? And everybody was like, like, this is so. I loved every second of it. It was my favorite thing. My instructors probably remember me being the only person that was excited about it. So from then on, from about the age of 14, I had the goal and passion for working for Outward Bound as an instructor one day which is crazy, because eight years later, here I am. I just had my interview yesterday for that position. So. Yeah.
 
Joy
I'm so excited for you.
 
Grayson
Yeah, it's going to be exciting.
 
Joy
Just in case some of our listeners don't know what Outward Bound is. How would you describe it?
 
Grayson
Outward bound. Oh, okay. Let me see if I can make this a short definition. Outward Bound to me is a community of people and a program that provides courses like backpacking courses. there's paddling, there's climbing, all integrated. Either it can be separately. It's like just a backpacking course or all those three things together, and then various other leadership skills, communication, self-reliance, mental health, just all the kinds of things that can help shape you and help you grow as a human. Outward Bound. They just really, really care about youth, and they really care about inspiring young people to connect with nature and, you know, connect and grow more into themselves.
 
Joy
Okay. Thank you. So it's something I can pay for. I can do semester-long, week-long activities.
 
Grayson
So the courses run, typically on average from 4 to 30 days. And then we do have like, 50 day outdoor educator course around that, number of days and then also a semester course. The cool thing about NCOBS which is North Carolina Outward Bound School, is they actually run programs in a couple of different states, which is, let's see, North Carolina, Florida, Virginia.
We have got someone like the Outer Banks, like beach stuff, which is kind of cool. And then, the season actually just ended, and Table Rock, which is about an hour outside of Boone, near Morganton. And so that season ended on Halloween, October 31st. And, all the people are moving down to the Everglades in Florida which is really cool. The base camp is like on an island. I've never been, but I've heard really cool stories. Then they also run a semester course in Patagonia. So, you do a month there, a month in the Everglades and a month in the Blue Ridge Mountains. I'm not sure of the order. I think you've got, like, a day break.
 
Like you've obviously you're flying. You might stay in a hotel or somewhere, like, you know, but, yeah, I mean, there's so many options.
 
Joy
And so when you were in high school, was it a week, like, how long was your course?
 
Grayson
Our course was three nights and four days.
 
Joy
And you got jazzed just from three nights and four days?
 
Grayson
My gosh, yes, it was. I mean, the bus ride. They're getting out of the bus. I mean, I ended up going on a course for 30 days. I applied, I think 2 or 3 months after I got back from that trip, which is in April so I applied over the summer, got accepted to my 30 day course in Oregon that October, and was there the next summer.
 
Joy
And remind me how old you were. For the first time in high school.
 
Grayson
I was, I had oh, actually, I might have been. No, I would have been 14 about to turn 15.
 
Joy
Okay. Yeah. And so then a couple months later, you go on a 30 day course.
 
Grayson
About a year later, I applied a few months later, and then about a year later I was in Oregon.
 
Joy
Okay. So Outward Bound has really been in your life since you're about 15? Yes. Okay. Cool. All right. So the next question we have here is what are your favorite outdoor activities. You've mentioned that you enjoy climbing. What other outdoor activities do you do or enjoy?
 
Grayson
Yeah. I really like backpacking, just generally speaking. It brings me a lot of joy to carry all my things around, even though it's really heavy and can be painful at times. I just find a lot of joy in the fact that I'm just like, ooh, where's my pen? Well, I know where it is. It's right here in my pocket. You know, like I have all my things right on my person. I can put my bed anywhere. I have beautiful views, you know, I'm with my friends. I can cook them a meal. Let's see, I took a paddling class. Let's see, was it last semester or the semester before with Grace Fortune, who works at UREC now.
Grayson
And, that was an amazing class. I had a lot of fun. Yeah. She's great. Yeah, we had a really great time. that really opened up my passion for paddling as well. That's also something that I'll hopefully be trained in, with Outward Bound, whenever that does happen. But yeah, kayaking would be my, my preferred paddling.
 
Joy
Are you thinking kayaking like whitewater or flat water or any of it?
 
Grayson
So I have some, some flat water kayaking experience. I grew up going to summer camp, so I learned a lot of it there. and then with that paddling class we were on, all flat water. We didn't get the chance to do any whitewater. I did go to the Whitewater Center in Charlotte while I was working with Outward Bound this summer. It was a little intimidating because, you know, it's intense there. It's, you know, it's like a real rapid situation. We went rafting before, and I fell out at the top of the run and, like, was swimming all the way down. And it was just so much. And I was like, I'm not going to do the whitewater kayaking today.
 
Joy
Did water get up your nose?
 
Grayson
Oh, I thought, I thought so many bad things were going to happen to me because I swallowed the water and I couldn't get out of it. It was just so funny. But type two fun would be that. That was my type two fun experience with some white water.
 
Joy
So our listeners may not be as familiar with type one. Type two can you kind of tell us what you mean by that?
 
Grayson
Yeah. So type one fun would be like, yeah, I just had a lot of fun. Like, you did an activity and you're like, that was super cool. That was really fulfilling. That made me really happy. Type two fun would be like, in the moment I'm really kind of scared. Or I'm like, what's the outcome going to be like? This is kind of really like a roller coaster, maybe like you're going up the roller coaster, you're freaking out. And then once it falls, you're like, woohoo!
 
Joy
Yeah.
 
Grayson
So, type two fun would be like, you look back on that moment when you were scared and you're like, but that was kind of fun though. Like, let's be honest, that was kind of fun. And then, type three is just like, nope, that wasn't fun at all. I don't want to do that again. I'm done. Yeah.
 
Joy
All right. Thank you for that explanation. How do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors,
 
Grayson
That's a good question. I think just growing up. So again, I didn't really have access to your typical recreation. I mean, I went on Outward Bound trips, which I was really, really blessed and privileged to be able to do that but I didn't have anything locally that I was really getting into as a kid.
 
Joy
And then how...were you involved with scouting?
 
Grayson
No, I worked for a Girl Scout camp, two summers ago, and that's really my only experience there. Even growing up at summer camp, it was still, you know, it wasn't like outdoors, the way that we think of it in the sense of, you know, this field. It was more just like your stereotypical summer camp activities, but I'd say just just I've always I've never not been interested in the outdoors.I feel like that's why this is a hard question for me to answer, because, I mean, as a kid, I was always, you know, digging up worms in the backyard and playing in the dirt and, you know, collecting acorns and burying them for squirrels because I thought that they would come in and then get the nuts, you know, just just things like that. I've always just had a passion for all sorts of critters and nature and everything.
 
Joy
So was there any, like, friends or adults or really, it sounds like those were foundational, but then Outward Bound really kind of pushed you in this kind of adventure.
 
Grayson
So I would say there's two people that would be notable in my Outward Bound journey, which would be Stiles Rader. She actually went to my high school, which I won't name, but she did go to my high school and we applied to, like, all the same colleges.
 
Joy
And she was here.
 
Grayson
She was here. She went to App. She worked a lot with Jerry Cantwell. That's how she got to Outward Bound. Yeah. I actually went to her house for, like, an Outward Bound alumnae meeting one time, and I was the youngest student. Or, like, you know, I, I was the one that had been on a course most recently. So that was super exciting for all of the people that we're like from the 70s and 80s on their courses. So yeah, Stiles was a really big inspiration for me because once I figured, I mean, we don't even really know each other that well, but just knowing that there was a person that came out of my high school that, you know, now is and the outdoor industry was really, really cool. And I actually went back to Outward Bound as a senior because I had to do it like an internship or a capstone project my senior year of high school. And I just loved it so much that I was like, I need to go back, I need to go do this. Stiles wrote me a little note on a chocolate bar and was like, you've got this. I was a student mentor, so I obviously wasn't an instructor. You know, I'm in high school. But, you know, they let me lead some, like, evening circles and teach some lessons and yeah, you know, they definitely stepped in a lot because this was five years ago almost.
 
Joy
See how much you've grown.
 
Grayson
I know, and it's so crazy now because the person that I was in contact with about being a mentor for the freshmen when I was a senior was Whitney Setser, who I text now regularly. We’re both Boygenius fans, big Swifties and she still works for Outward Bound and does the same. So I actually might be going back with her, at the end of this year or beginning of next year, maybe spring to talk to the freshmen at Saint Mary's.
 
Joy
It just sounds like this community of yours just started building in 2015. Well not in 2015 but when you were 15 and you had no idea.
 
Grayson
No, it was! It was 2015!
 
Joy
Oh it was?! Ok! I made a good guess.
 
Grayson
Yeah. And, yeah, it's crazy. And I remember, I got to all-staff training. Let me mention this. So there are...there's several, base camps, like I said, the Everglades and then in North Carolina, we've got the Outer Banks and then the two, that I'd say are more well known would be Table Rock and Cedar Rock and Cedar Rock is near Brevard for location context. So we were down at Cedar Rock, and I was introduced to Whitney, who I thought I was being introduced to and then I was like, your name sounds really familiar. Like, do you, you know, like, I have been on I've been with Outward Bound, whatever. And we figured out that she was working with my high school. I texted her the other day, I was like, did you see this thing that Taylor did? And, you know, do we have fun?
 
Joy
Yeah. Well, I think that the fun thing for me to think about this for you, Grayson, is that imagine the influence you're having on other people. Like you're just part of this chain now of influencing people who come into the Outward Bound community into ways that you're not going to be able to imagine.
 
Grayson
I know, and that's something that I think about so often. And the main reason, really, why I want to be an instructor is because of the impact my instructors had on me over the years. I mean, I would not be anywhere near the human that I am right now without Outward Bound and without that community.
 
Joy
Understood. So this next question, you've kind of been answering it, but I'm going to kind of direct in a different way. So that next question is tell us a story about an outdoor experience that has influenced you. So it could be a funny story. It could be a lesson learned story. Do you have anything like that you'd be willing to share with our listeners?
 
Grayson
I do, so let's see if I can recall this. Well, so this was, let's see, July of 2016. I was in Oregon. I had been on my course for a little over two weeks...maybe even three at this point. We were going to summit a peak and it was Broken Top in the Three Sisters Wilderness and oh my gosh, the most beautiful place, really, that I've ever been. I love Oregon so much. And so that morning we wake up. I'm pretty stoked. You know, it's early. It's like four. Sun's not up yet. Whatever. There's snow and ice on the ground. We'll figure it out. We've got this. So we pack up our things and we get going and it was probably the most terrifying experience of my entire life.
The way up there, I was, like, freaking out panic attack mode. Like, not...
 
Joy
Type three fun?
 
Grayson
Yes. I was like, get me out of here. I don't want to be here. This is not. And, you know, my instructors at the time, they were pushing me because they thought that I was in my comfort zone of like, okay, I'm uncomfortable, but I can do this. But I was in a panic. Right?
And they later were like, we're sorry that, you know, we didn't recognize that. But back to the important part of the story. So we finally make it up there. I was freaked out the whole time I get to the summit, I barely remember it. I remember, like, looking around and just being like, get me off this mountain right now! Like. And I was like, 16. Oh, my. It was a no-cussing course. And I was like get me the f... like, no, like, I need to leave right now. So I get down off the summit. I'm not in the picture with all of my crew mates. They have a picture together. I'm not in it because I was like, get me away. I mean, we had like hand lines.
 
Joy
Was it the height? What was freaking you out.
Grayson
It was the height without safety. I'm not really afraid of heights like I've been in planes. I've been on roller coasters you know, but it's when I don't have railings or anything. You know, then you're like,
 
Joy
High Risk.
 
Grayson
Very high risk. And, like, I mean, I'm looking down this steep, steep, icy, snowy hill to an opening of jagged rocks that probably drops like 100ft down. I'm like, I don't want to fall into that. Please, can we go somewhere else? So my crew ended up, after, you know, everybody celebrated being at the top. We had some lunch and we started the trek down and I just couldn't do it. I mean, walking down this slippery slope, like, rocks, ice, snow. I was just, like, not about it. So one of my instructors stayed back with me and the rest of my crew and my other instructor just, you know, they were all like, we're good to go. We're just going to walk down, which was a little embarrassing for me. You know, I was 16 at the time. I was one of only two women on that course. So it was already kind of like a weird situation and we're hiking down and I was, again, just freaking out the whole time. And my instructor was like, all right, here's what we're going to do. Come here. And again, like I said, this was a no cussing course. Okay. We're in. We're on the side of this mountain trying to get down it. No one else is in sight.
 
Joy
What's the altitude? Just to give us perspective.
 
Grayson
I don't think it was. It might have been a 12. It's not it's not. It's less than 14.
 
Joy
Ok. That’s still significant.
 
Grayson
It's definitely significant. And especially when you're there you're like, oh yeah I'm on this mountain. So we're so we're there. We're like not even halfway down. And he's like come here. Like we're going to do something. And I was like, okay. And he's like, come over here and here's what we're going to do. You're going to scream your name, but you're going to scream it like this. And then he screams his name and he goes, (I'm going to say my name first). But he goes, my name is Grayson Smith. And I'm so awesome and made me scream this into the void of the wilderness. And I was like, I was like, please don't make me do that. He's like, we're doing it. He's like, I'll go first. So he goes first. And then I was like, Okay.
Grayson
And I did it. And I was like, oh. And I just...I look back on that moment a lot and I later found out that that was his first course as an instructor.
 
Joy
Oh, wow.
 
Grayson
Which really, really has stuck with me now that I'm, you know, looking on that path and, it's just it's just crazy to think how little this one sentence that my instructor made me say to just be like, get out of your head for a second. Let's just cuss it out. You know? I'm like, let's just do something fun and different for a second. And of course, I'm like, no, please don't make me. And I did it.
 
Joy
It changed? Like, were you able to continue down or just?
 
Grayson
It still was a hard trek down, but I definitely felt more capable. And, I mean, I would say that looking back, probably in that moment, I was like, oh, that was stupid. Now I still have to go do this. But looking back, that was so
 
Joy
A very powerful moment.
 
Grayson
It was a very powerful moment. Yes.
 
Joy
Well, cool. Thank you for being willing to share that with us. Yeah.
 
Becki
Today's episode is proudly sponsored by the Hope Lab. At the Hope Lab we're committed to finding creative ways to promote outdoor activity. Visit appstate.hopelab.edu to explore the myriad of benefits of spending time outdoors. As we listen to Grayson, you can hear how important the Outward Bound community is to helping them explore their outdoor interest, not only being mentored by Stiles and then becoming a mentor themselves it’s important to their development as an outdoor leader, wasn't it interesting to hear how the Outward Bound instructor helped Grayson move through their uncertainty? The instructor changed Grayson's headspace through empathy and activity. While it was still difficult, the instructor and Grayson shared a powerful moment. Grayson's insights shed light on a powerful concept embracing discomfort and vulnerability in the outdoors. They highlight the importance of overcoming personal barriers and sharing vulnerabilities, which, though challenging, can foster bonds and personal growth. Let's get back to the interview with Grayson.
 
Joy
So, these next questions are kind of like we're trying to help our podcast listeners who may not be comfortable in the outdoors but they aspire to it. So it's kind of like...we want to get the dirt on being outside, like some of your perspectives. So what's your biggest fear about being in an outdoor setting?
 
Grayson
The dark. I love the stars, and I love how it feels when I'm, like, all cuddled up in my tent. But if I have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night, no thank you. Especially when you're in areas that have wild animals.
 
Joy
Even with a flashlight and everything?
 
Grayson
It's just that I have a lot of anxiety. I'm like, something's going to come out of the woods. Something's going to happen. Nothing has ever happened, right? Nothing ever really happens. Like the animals are scared of you, you know, I mean, I literally...
 
Joy
It doesn’t help your anxiety, though.
 
Grayson
No it doesn't. You know, I'm just like, what was that noise? What was that twig snapping? Like, something's coming...but yeah, I just, I think, yeah, I mean, you have your headlamp, you've got your people for the most part. I guess it would be more if I was on a solo trip. I would be freaked out if I were to hear something.
 
Joy
I take it that caving is not an option.
 
Grayson
Well, actually, you'd think, I have been caving a couple times. The first time was very scary. Luckily, I had my friend Bronwyn Player with me who we went through this program together, so we got through it with some laughs. Definitely some type two fun. Then I went back again and had such...a much better experience and loved it a lot. I would totally go again. I don't think I could guide, but I definitely enjoy caving, which is interesting that you point that out. Maybe it's like the open woods.
 
Joy
There's critters in the cave, but it's not the same.
Grayson
It’s not yeah, there's like bats and little things.
 
Joy
There are the noises that are occurring or drips and yeah, whereas I can totally see like the first time I did tarp tent, I've always done tents. And so about ten years ago, Jerry Cantwell said, here, just use this tarp for backpacking. It'll be lighter weight for you. I was taking my nephew and I was like, paying attention to everything. But it's funny because a tent is no different.
 
Grayson
It's really not.
 
Joy
But there's something about being able to see. And I'd wake up and I look out. Whereas a tent, I would be like, ohh there’s nothing and I’d go back to sleep.
 
Grayson
You’re in a house. It’s your little tent. It's got four walls. You're protected. But really you're not.
 
Joy
You’re not.
 
Grayson
It's the same material. It's all the same. So it's really a mindset I think of just like, all right, nothing's going to happen. And if something happens, it's not because a bear comes out of the woods and bites my head off, that's not what's going to happen. You know?
 
Joy
Right. Although I think you bring up a really good point that I think a lot of people struggle with, like there's this intellectual knowledge, I know, I mean, there's going to be some danger, but really, that the bears bite my head off and I've got some protection. The chances of that happening are very low unless I'm out west with grizzlies.
 
Grayson
Right.
 
Joy
And yet my emotional state or my anxiety still will play tricks with me. And so it's the frame of mind that I've got to get myself into. And another experience I had, we had a bear that came along, a beach that I was at, and I was with the ranger. It was in Alaska.
 
Grayson
Okay? I was like, a bear on the beach. That’s cool.
 
Joy
I was just walking to the beach. Turned out it was a black bear, but we didn't know this because it was dark. Like you're saying. I was sitting on a boat, just kind of looking at the stars, and I saw something walking, and I thought it was a man at first, because that's what your mind goes to. But then you're in the middle of Alaska. So anyway, I started yelling out what I’m supposed to do. Hey, bear, bear and the bear did what it was supposed to. It turned around and took off. Yeah, but my ranger who was up in the tent, she's like, what is happening? I'm like, well, I just saw a bear. And so she kept me awake till 1:00 in the morning with the gun between us, because, you know, you have...and I was like, well, the bear's gone now. Why are we still awake? But I had freaked her out, you know. So again, intellectually....and she was the ranger. I was just volunteering. So it is an interesting dynamic that the dark can play havoc. And so how do I reframe myself so that I can sleep or do whatever I need to do?
 
Grayson
Now that you've brought up the beach, I'm just thinking of I also really don't like murky water. Murky water also. It's when I don't know what's there. That's my problem. And so I also try to think about well, I go, I go in the ocean, I go swimming in the ocean. There's terrifying animals in the ocean. Sharks come up to the shore all the time.
 
Joy
You know, you see those waves? The pictures now of them in the waves with people surfing.
 
Grayson
Yeah. And they just and they're you know, I mean things do happen very rarely but...
 
Joy
So murky water like swamp or lake.
 
Grayson
Like a lake, I really struggle with getting in a lake. I like a river. But the lake with like the still and it's dark and it's icky looking, but, no. Yeah, I would say that thinking about if somebody does have kind of that similar fear of like, I don't know what's out there, what's going to happen and also goes swimming in the ocean or it's been to the beach. I sometimes think about that. And I'm like, these animals are minding their own business. Let me just mind my own business.
 
Joy
That’s a good way to put it, Grayson. You brought up something else that research shows you're not alone in that murky water idea, and that people who've only swam in swimming pools are less likely to enjoy outdoor recreation, like paddling or swimming at the ocean because they can't see what's at the bottom. So that's one of the things, as a recreation professional, I've been trying to figure out. How do I get people more exposed to these murky environments?
 
Grayson
That’s such an interesting thing because the summer camp that I grew up going to, we had, a swim lake. We didn't have a pool. And so it was like sand and mud and murky and seaweed growing on the bottom. And I, I don't know, I never as a child, I never had those fears. I think maybe it's just now that I have, like you're saying, the knowledge that there are things that could happen to me. I'm not just like this kid with all of my like, whoa, like, oh, just do whatever I want, you know? Now I know that there's things that could happen. And, you know.
 
Joy
I'm just, frankly, grossed out by touching the bottom of a lake.
 
Grayson
Yeah, I know I'm like ewwwww.
 
Joy
You know, and again, intellectually, I know it's fine.
 
Grayson
Nothings wrong, it's just like, ewww.
 
Joy
If I put my Chacos on, I'm good. You know?
 
Grayson
Touching the bottom of the lake for me, that’s what gets me.
 
Joy
All right. So what is the most embarrassing outdoor moment you may have had?
 
Grayson
I want to have to...I don't even know. I have to think on that one. The ones that are coming to mind right now, I feel like aren’t embarrassing in reality. But were embarrassing for me.
 
Joy
That's fine.
 
Grayson
Well, But it was like when I was on my senior expedition, I was just having, like, this breakdown, and it was just a really vulnerable place to be. it wasn't so much as embarrassing as it was, just like I'm crying in front of all of my peers right now and freaking out and I don't know why, and I can't control it. In that situation, you know, everybody was able to be like, what can we do for you? And I didn't know them super well, except for Bronwyn, and, yeah, it was just, I mean, I wouldn't even say embarrassing. I would just say just a lot emotionally. Very vulnerable, you know? And sometimes that's what happens, you know, when you're in these groups. I mean, that was on our first day. We only did one night on this on our capstone trip with Jerry. It was the first night. I was just freaking out. And it happens, you know, and and when those things do happen and you're like, I want my mom or I want my sister, or I want my best friend, or I want my dog, you know, whatever it may be, you don't have those things.
You've got your people right here. And even though that was like so uncomfortable for me I was like all right well this is happening. I'm sitting over here in the corner crying by myself. We're in a group like we're in a circle. I'm hysterically sobbing. No one is saying anything. And I was like, just so you guys know, like, I'm not doing so well right now. And it took me so long to get there because I'm just embarrassed, you know? I didn't know these people very well. Most of them were men. I don't really interact with men too much. I went to the all girls camp growing up, all girls high school, all girls dorm floor my freshman year, and now I'm trans.
So I just, you know, it's a lot of hesitation for me already. And I think being in this industry, accepting the uncomfortable and the vulnerable moments that happen can just, I don't know, I feel like I don't even know if I've been embarrassed because it's just moments like that where I'm like whew.
 
Joy
Well, you're bringing up some really great things that I think our listeners also experience, right? Like if I'm having an emotional breakdown in the middle of something in front of a group, that may prevent me from wanting to do it in the future. So this idea of trying to work through uncomfortable situations and knowing that people have your back and that it's like you said, it just is. I was freaking out, I was crying.
 
Joy
And yet and yet you still keep going back.
 
Grayson
Oh, yeah.
 
Joy
You still keep putting yourself out there. And I think that's a key thing to getting comfortable in the outdoors is if I can't get myself out there and I have fear and risk, I'll never go do anything because there's bears or because I can't pee in the woods or because I'm going to have an emotional...I might have an emotional moment. So you characterized it well. It’s being uncomfortable. Yeah. As opposed to embarrassing at the same time. There is a shame. Like, sometimes I feel an internal shame.
 
Grayson
I definitely felt shame and you know, I'm. I'm sitting here being very vulnerable. You know, stereotypically, males aren't really raised to express their emotions in that way. And I think that this industry has done a really good job of kind of reopening that and being like, why is this happening? Let's really talk about our feelings and like, it's okay to have feelings.
I think just, you know, it's hard, it's hard to, to be vulnerable and to...I have trouble crying in front of my roommate and best friend, you know, and, I think a lot of people struggle with that.
 
Joy
And then you're in the middle of woods with people you don't know, and you're crying.
 
Grayson
It’s dark. There could be a bear ten feet that way. And I'm having a panic attack in front of my professor.
 
Joy
Sorry, I'm not laughing.
 
Grayson
No, it's not what it is. It's type two funny is what it is. It's just funny like, you know, and I look back on that and I'm like, I really was not okay. And then...But I am okay.
 
Joy
Yeah.
 
Grayson
I'm fine, you know. And actually, funnily enough, that happened at the campsite that I was at as a freshman on an Outward Bound course because we were on base for this trip. so I was literally in the area that I discovered my passion for this, and I was like, oh, I want to go home. Don’t make me stay here!
 
Joy
Well, thank you for sharing that. I think that's the key thing is the vulnerability and and recognizing the emotional turmoil that you may be going through as you're struggling and persevering through something that can be uncomfortable. or challenging.
 
Grayson
Yeah. It can be really bonding for a group, too, you know, obviously that was a really big struggle for me. But, you know, the next morning we came together and were able to make some decisions that needed to be made. And we all, you know, were just like, if one person is uncomfortable, let's come up with a new plan. Let's come up with a new idea or a new route to take.
 
Joy
Yeah, yeah. Cool. Okay. This is going to change the tone a little bit. What is a must have piece of outdoor gear or equipment? Like you could never leave home without it. What can’t you live without in the outdoors? What would you like... You're kind of like...You're going. You've got to take it.
 
Grayson
Journal and the pen.
 
Joy
Tell me more.
 
Grayson
I have filled up so many journals from my time on Outward Bound and in the outdoors. It's just so even if I'm just like today we had oatmeal with raisins. Then we hiked ten miles. Now I'm tired, you know, just like. Right? I love looking back through those journals and I try to get really detailed with how I'm feeling. You know, sometimes I don't have time. I always like to write a little something down. But, I mean, I open up those journals from 2015, 2016, my letters to myself from whatever. And, I can see, like the mosquito that I slapped still there from five years ago, you know, like, it's just cool. It's just, you know.
 
Joy
That’s very cool.
 
Grayson
And I feel like my experiences are just in this little book.
 
Joy
Does it bring back the emotional part? When you're like, when you are reading some of the stuff. Does it bring you back to where you are?
 
Grayson
It does. Yeah. and, you know, on both of my longer courses. So I went on the 30 day in Oregon when I was 16, and then I went on a 14 day in California in July of 2021. I think I was 20, maybe I just turned 21. One person on both of those courses had to be evacuated for completely different reasons. One of them was mental health related, and it was really, really hard. And I wrote all about it in my journal. And sometimes I look back on that and I'm like, wow, like that happened. And you know, that happened to that person. And that also happened to me. you know, there's just a whole lot of emotions in there. And also it's really, really cool to see the growth and myself, you know, at the time, I was going by a different name, different pronouns, you know, and I didn't know that, that that was, you know, not who I was. And I always had kind of felt uncomfortable but just looking back at those journals and, you know, I would do little drawings on my solos and I can see and I am I do, I do some art. I did a lot of art in high school. And so, like sketching my little like, you know, we have solo reflection time for 20 minutes, and I sketch my view and I go back and I look at that and I'm like, I remember that view, you know? So I guess that's not even really like technical gear. That's just...but I
 
Joy
No. But it's a must have.
 
Grayson
It is a must have. Yeah, it's definitely a must have.
 
Joy
I can appreciate that. I was going to ask you about if you did art. So I'm glad you expanded a little bit because there's research out there on journaling and it's power for learning and then connecting and then seeing the growth. So I appreciate you sharing that as your must have. Last question for you is what's your favorite local spot in Boone to go be in the outdoors?
 
Grayson
I've found a lot of little spots on the Blue Ridge Parkway. They’re secret spots.
 
Joy
Okay, you can keep it secret.
 
Grayson
However, I will say if you drive the parkway even like ten minutes down and you see a little gravel pull off, you can find a waterfall, you know, like, so I've. I mean, there's a bunch of little waterfalls and creeks that I found that are definitely not unknown to the public, but, I couldn't even tell you if I wanted to, because I don't I couldn't. It would be like a coordinate thing.
I would say if you drive up and down the Blue Ridge Parkway, you can find a lot of good spots that are kind of secluded, and you can bring out your journal or a book and read by a little waterfall and skip rocks. Yeah, the parkway is definitely where all of my spots are.
 
Joy
That's why I like the parkway, too. Like you say, it may not be secret, but it feels secret when you're there. You're away from...
 
Grayson
It feels secluded and you can, like, go up to an overlook and there's a trail that, you know, where does this go? Who knows? You know. And then you find something and then you remember where it is. And I'm like, I'm going to go back there next week and read my book. I think it's just really about exploring what we have out here. Boone is just such a great place to explore nature and get connected to that community.
 
Joy
Absolutely. Well, what I'll do for our listeners is I'll put a link in to, North Carolina Outward Bound.
 
Grayson
Yeah. For sure.
 
Joy
If they wanted to get into it, is it best to take a course first or go work for them?
Grayson
So I will say, I worked there's a logistics coordinator last season, and there were a few of us that had been on a course prior and a few of us that hadn't. And I will say that the people that had definitely were a lot more aware of how important our job was and how we really needed to be on top of things. Not that the other people weren't. It was just like, I know what they are doing out there. I know how stressful it can be. So me being here on time with this water and this food is like so important. I can't say that it's, you know, that you should or you shouldn't because it's, you know, it's an expensive activity.
 
Joy
It is.
 
Grayson
There are scholarships and things. But I would say if somebody is looking to be an outdoor educator and has like, nothing, no experience at all, taking an outdoor educator course or even just going on a normal, even just a week, you know, just kind of getting a taste of what it is or just going and backpacking with your friends or going camping even like at Price Lake.
You know, it doesn't have to be so crazy. But, yeah, I mean, there's people at Outward Bound that majored in finance, you know, and I, I asked somebody once, I was like, oh like, what did you study in school? He said, accounting and finance. I was like, well that's okay. Like how did you get here? He's like, well, I just didn't like it. I like this better. Like cool. Like, you know, it's just everybody is from everywhere and it's really cool to be a part of it.
 
Joy
It's such a great point. So Grayson, thank you for your time today. We look forward to seeing what you do in the future with Outward Bound.
 
Grayson
Yeah, I appreciate it.
 
Becki
Participating in an Outward Bound course offers a valuable opportunity to cultivate skills and forge connections with fellow outdoor enthusiasts. One noteworthy aspect we'd like to spotlight is Grayson's essential outdoor companion. Their journal, a nature journal, serves as a record of observations and reflections distinct from a traditional diary. Through nature journaling, we can deepen our understanding of the natural world and gain insights into ourselves. Consider taking up nature journaling. It's a journey of discovery, waiting to unfold both in nature and within yourself. As we wrap up the interview, we want to share some resources for you. Check out this episode's notes page for resources on our bound, the fun scale, and journaling. We extend our heartfelt gratitude to Grayson for sharing their invaluable insights and stories with us. The Appalachian Atrocity Podcast is the brainchild of Melissa Weddle, Becki Battista, and Joy James. Special thanks to our dedicated podcast producer, Dave Blanks from App State University Communications for his exceptional work behind the scenes. If you would like to reach out to us, you can reach us at podcasts@appstate.edu. We leave you with the following quote. The greatness of a community is most accurately measured by the compassionate actions of its members. Coretta Scott King.

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Management and Physical Education, interviews App State graduate, Mary Bowman. While a student, Mary created a podcast called "Mumbling Mountaineer Minutes," wherein she explored Student Perceptions of Physical Activity Incorporated into Science Lessons. Listen to this podcast within a podcast as Mary interviews herself. This episode has so many levels. 
 
 
 
Show Notes
Mary Bowman, She/HerGraduated Spring 2023 from App State with a degree in Recreation Management Worked at Outdoor Programs for the Outing CenterWas involved in Venture ScoutsWorked at Boy Scouts of America Philmont Scout RanchCompleted her Recreation Management and Physical Education Department Honor’s Thesis “A Pilot Study: Student Perceptions of Physical Activity Incorporated into Science Lessons” in collaboration with the HOPE LabAs a part of her RM Senior Seminar, she completed a podcast on her thesis and this is what this episode is about.
 
 
 
Transcript
 
Becki BattistaWelcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share App State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by the Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on health, the environment and human development.Becki BattistaThe vision of the Hope Lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista. I am a professor in exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict.Becki BattistaI'm your host for today's episode of the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast. On today's episode, team member Dr. Joy James, a professor in recreation management, interviews her former recreation management student Mary Bowman. This is a different take for our podcast where we highlight Mary's RMPE Departmental Honors thesis. She worked on a project with the Hope Lab team. Then, as part of a class project, she created a podcast about her research.Becki BattistaWhen Joy heard the podcast, she knew we had to highlight it here on Appalachian Outdoorosity.Joy JamesSo, it's Joy James here on Outdoorosity. We're so excited. Our guest is Mary Bowman, who's a recent graduate from Appalachian State University in recreation management. So, I'm going to let Mary kinda introduce herself. Both of us are having trouble because we giggle a lot. So, listeners, be prepared for that. So, Mary, if you'll introduce yourself and tell us where you're from and what your favorite outdoor recreation activity is.Mary BowmanI am Mary Bowman. I am from Cary. So, Mary from Cary. I just graduated from App in May. Went there because at the time I was undecided and thought that I could really get a good kinda liberal arts experience. I found recreation management and just fit right in. Yeah, my favorite recreational activity is backpacking. I haven't done it in a while.Mary BowmanWork is really taking it out of me, but I’m really happy to get back into it in the coming season.Joy JamesMary, share with us what you're doing for work too. I think that's interesting.Mary BowmanYeah, I am working at Grandfather Mountain Stewardship Foundation as an environmental educator. We get groups at the mountain that are school groups, but also just some other groups that come and we do some environmental education. So, programs going outside as much as we can.Joy JamesCool. I know it's a cool job. I love Grandfather.Mary BowmanYeah, me too.Joy JamesTell us how you first got interested in the outdoors. Like what experiences is or what's a story that you would be willing to share that helped you kind of realize the outdoors was a path that you wanted to pursue, both personally and professionally.Mary BowmanYeah. So, I am the only daughter with two older brothers who are actively involved in scouting, and I would always tag along on a bunch of their trips, especially when my dad became a scoutmaster. And so, I kind of was an honorary scout when I was a kid and tried my hand at Girl Scouts. And it wasn't the path that really called to me.Mary BowmanAnd so, when I was old enough, I joined Venture Scouts and which is a high adventure coed, youth led form of scouting and really, really just found my calling there. I did Sea Base. I did Philmont. I did Northern Tier during the winter. So, I did all of the extremes. I was super-hot. I was super cold. I was very tired the entire time.Mary BowmanBut I found when I was doing that, especially as I age up within the crew, that I loved when we got new scouts in and I had to kind of guide them through everything and like start like, this is how you camp. This how you set up a tent. This is the best way to leave, no trace, all this kind of stuff. I realized I could make a profession out of it by going to national parks and seeing the interpretive park rangers I was like,Joy JamesYes, please sign me up. Cool! At Outdoorosity, we haven't really talked to people who've come up through the scouting movement, let alone Boy Scouts and venture scouts. Before the Boy Scouts kind of accepted both girls and boys. And would you say Boy Scouts is where you learned how to backpack, or were you backpacking before that?Mary BowmanIt was because of scouting that I learned how to backpack. My dad would kind of take our family to scout out the trails that they would go out with the scouts. So, we did it. We did a few trails like that, but it was really once I started getting into scouting myself and when we needed to go to Philmont and do all of those prep hikes that I really kind of fell in love with backpacking.Joy JamesI could talk about this a longer time. Unfortunately, I can't talk to you longer because I brought you on this podcast to help showcase an assignment that you did as part of a class you were in with me. And also, Mary did her departmental honors thesis with the Hope Lab, who's a sponsor of Outdoorosity and also part of the assignment that I had in the class was to do a podcast, and Mary was brilliant and she combined her research for her honors thesis with some of the work that she was doing and this other class with me.Joy JamesAnd one of these assignments was to create a podcast and this podcast was so good and it really kind of showcases not only the work that you did. Mary, it showcases what the Hope Lab is all about, trying to help people become more comfortable in the outdoors. And so, I really wanted to share this podcast that you created with the Outdoorosity listeners.Joy JamesSo, before we kind of give them a taste of, of the podcast in your own words frame or set the picture for us. When you created the podcast, what were you going for? And just kind of set the tone because I know you approached it from a different way and had a unique take on the assignment, so I'll let you share from there.Mary BowmanYeah, well, first I want to say that the biggest struggle with this assignment was the time limit that was set on it. Because once I started, like writing my script and everything. I was like, I, this is way too long. I think it would end up being like six or so minutes longer than it needs to be, which is just me talking, which is a lot.Joy JamesIt was fine that you went over. It was a ten minute limit and I was so engaged as I hope the audience will be engaged with your talking.Mary BowmanI tried to approach it with kind of like it was more like a like a newspaper, sort of like column kind of thing where there's this set up where every week there's another time that we talk about a topic associated with App State and I was the host and the guest on my podcast, so I kind of focused on the research that I had been doing with Joy James and kind of just also a little bit of my experience and connecting the class with my experience in the outdoors.Mary BowmanAnd yeah, I just kind of had a lot of fun. I tried to make it as alliterative as possible, so it’s like, Mumbling Mountaineer Minutes. I and I hope you can hear me because I am talking very low.Joy JamesShe’s an Appalachian mountain Mumbler, but no. So, what we're going to do at this point is switch over to that podcast to let the listeners listen and then we're going to come back and talk with Mary. So have a listen.MumblerHail and well met fellow M&Ms. I am your host. Mumbler and this is your podcast ‚Mumbling Mountain Mountaineer Minutes. For any new listeners tuning in, the Mumbling Mountaineer Minutes podcast is my show where I get people talking in low voices about fascinating topics across campus. Last week we had Dr. H, one of App State's very own IO psychologists talking about the organizational structure of the university as a psych minor, I found that very interesting and I hope you all did as well. So go back and give that one to listen if you haven’t already. Moving into today’s topic, we’ve got a student doing some research on physical activity levels in classrooms, children and even adults. Physical activity levels have been decreasing over the last few decades, and now researchers are trying to find ways to get kids more active.MumblerOne such researcher is focusing on how first grade students perceive the incorporation of movement into science lessons. Are they engaged, learning more or being more active? All these questions and more we will explore during this episode. So, without further ado, it is time to introduce our guest for today, Mary Bowman. Please tell us a little bit about yourself.Mary BowmanYeah, of course. Well, first of all, let me thank you for having me today, long time listener and all that.MumblerI love to hear that.Mary BowmanBut yeah, so I am a senior recreation management student with a concentration in park and recreation management with dreams of being an interpretive park ranger. I have been working with Doctors James and Towner and the Hope or Healthy Outdoor Play and Exercise Lab to kind of examine these questions a little bit more.MumblerWowee! Senior huh? And so, you're graduating this spring. so.Mary BowmanYeah, less than two weeks.MumblerYeah. Wow. Well, congratulations.
 
Mary Bowman
Thank you.
 
Mumbler
So, tell us a little bit more about how kids activity in classrooms impacts your field, like recreation, national parks, that kind of stuff.
Mary BowmanSure. So, a lot of research shows that children who get exposure to physical activity throughout their childhood are more likely to remain active later in life. That's kind of the interest that I took in this. And because children aren't being as active and especially not getting outdoors as much in the same droves, there is a concern about their health, but also something that we're kind of seeing in recreation is that there's a lot less awareness of outdoor recreational activities. People may know the premise of these activities, such as backpacking, rock climbing and mountain biking, but not so much is how to, like get in. So, part of what I'm actually interested in is helping to introduce kids to these concepts. And actually, something I worked on with Dr. James before is an event called Outdoor Expo, where I and two other college students went to the Appalachian Academy at Middle Fork, which is actually where the research for my thesis took place, and we showed them a couple of outdoor activities, ways to be active. We had an inflatable gaga ball pit. One of the students was teaching about no knots. One about packing a backpack. And so, we were having all these kids walk around in like partially packed backpacks and it was like really cute. But then I was giving a little introduction to Leave No Trace. So great time all around. But we noticed that there wasn't a lot of awareness of the possibilities of outdoor recreation.MumblerSo, there's a lot of interconnectedness that people don't really think about.
 
Mary Bowman
Yes, exactly. I mean, it's just habits, right? If kids make habits of getting outdoors, then they're going to be more likely to continue those habits throughout their life.
 
Mumbler
So here comes the question, what did you do as a kid?Mary BowmanI okay, let's see. I played a lot in the creek behind my house. You could even say I was an executive chef at the Mud Pie restaurant in my backyard. And as I got older, I got involved in scouting mainly boy scouting. Like that kind of branch. Not as much as girl scouting. So, I did more camping, hiking, backpacking, fishing, scuba diving, climbing.MumblerJust a little bit of everything. okay. So quite the diverse spread. Have you continued these into your college life?Mary BowmanYes. Not as much as I would have liked with, like, classes and work and whatnot getting in the way. But yes. What about you?MumblerLet's see. I did a lot of just going to my local park. My parents took us out for walks quite a bit and there was a lake there so you could rent canoes and kind of paddle around. But same as you. I've had a bit of shift and focus during my time here at App.Mary BowmanUnderstandable. I'm. I'm right there with you. But. But, hey, hit me up and we should go for a paddle sometime.
 
Mumbler
You know what? I might just take you up on that, but there is something that I want to get back to just a little bit. You mentioned that there wasn't as much awareness of some of these recreational activities. Can you dive more into that? What are the challenges that the recreation field is facing as a result of low physical activity levels in children?Mary BowmanWow, that's a big question. Yeah, it is a little bit of a big question.MumblerSorry. This is just a fascinating topic. And the question just kind of developed more as I was talking.Mary BowmanNo. You're all good. I'm just I'm but a wee undergraduate student, so I'll do my best. Right. So, kids who aren't getting the recommended 60 minutes of moderate to vigorous physical activity per day are more at risk for a whole range of health challenges. And there is the aspect that kids aren't learning a lot about these recreational activities. So, if they ever get into backpacking, hiking, climbing, these sorts of contexts, they have to overcome the physicality aspect and the knowledge aspect. So both of those. Both can be addressed, but it does bring on this question of safety. People can see the outdoor rec industry as sort of this like in-group and in a respect, there is a group that is like in the know and not. There's a lot of terminology that people need to be aware of protocols and behaviors that should be followed lest you risk life and limb. So, the challenge that recreation faces specifically is how to get kids introduced to these concepts to lower their risk of health stuff and to keep them safer out in these contexts. And there have been a lot of great programs which aim to do just that. National parks are working with local schools during the off season. Other events like the outdoor expo that I put on and other stuff like that. The other aspect of this though is how do you get kids engaged in outdoor activities? Like, kids these days and, you know, also like US TVs, phones, TikTok, video games and all of that, it's all more immediate gratification that is hard to tear kids away from. So that is what recreation professionals have to struggle with.
 
Mumbler
Wow. Interesting. Okay. So, it’s challenging to get kids to engage and aware of some of these outdoor activities.Mary BowmanYeah, but research reiterates time and time again what benefits everyone, not just kids, get from getting outside and getting active.
 
Mumbler
Right. Of course, even with the little background I have on this topic, it's generally a well-known thing. Like I might not know all the specifics, but people know that there are benefits to getting outside, getting active, right? What are all the angles? I mean, during my time hosting this podcast, I’ve rarely encountered a topic that didn’t have criticisms.Mary BowmanSure. And I would be interested on your thoughts on this because I've drunk the proverbial Kool-Aid and I'm bought in. I've been working on this research for a long time, and it's all that occupies my thoughts. I do want to emphasize that I'm not saying that indoor activity is not good, really any activity is beneficial. It's just that outdoor activity has all the benefits of like base level activity coupled with the benefits of being outdoors.
 
Mumbler
Oh. Okay. So that's actually what I was going to say. Like, what is wrong with indoor activity?
 
Mary Bowman
Right. So, there's nothing wrong with indoor activity. That is actually kind of what the research I was working on with Dr. James focused on. So, since it was a pilot study that took place during November, there wasn't a lot of outdoor activity. What the surveys ended up analyzing was student perceptions of enjoyment and an indoor active lesson versus indoor non-active lesson.
 
Mumbler
Okay, interesting. So, you and I know that there are benefits of being active and being active in the outdoors. What can say recreation professionals do to try to solve this?Mary Bowman
So funny you say that I recently had the opportunity to host a discussion about that very topic in my senior seminar class, So I asked my fellow students what we could do to lower the barriers that are preventing kids from participating. And we came up with a decent list. So first, having free or low cost programs, a lot of outdoor recreation programs and activities require a non-insignificant amount of money, like gear costs, like backpacks, tents, food, boots, clothes, all that kind of stuff that all racks up really quickly and that can prevent people from ever being able to participate. But also, things like admission fees or tickets to get in to get into some of these recreation areas that can also prevent participation. So, we talked about lowering that barrier.
 
Mumbler
That would be nice. Mary BowmanRight? I mean, and it does kind of hint at the sort of cynical perspective that we all have about capitalism. And a lot of us want to break down as many barriers as possible, but we also want to be able to provide quality programing. Yeah. And I wish I could offer more methods, on like how to make those actual changes, but that's above my pay grade.
 
Mumbler
Mine as well. So, what else did yall come up with? Mary BowmanSure. So, we also mentioned lowering expectations for kids participating in local parks and rec programs, extending more invitations, having club teams as well as ranked teams and exposure to more sports and activities. So lowering expectations for kids and having club teams is kind of the way that we're trying to create a welcoming environment that doesn't have the pressure for achievement. We talked about in class how some of us got burned out playing for teams where all people, parents and coaches wanted us to do was win. And a lot of times that competitive atmosphere ruined participation. Extending more invitations was trying to tackle the problem that some people don't know, what they don't know. Residents may not know everything that their local Parks and Rec department is offering, and that starts to go deep into more of how can we make recreational spaces more welcoming and inclusive.
 
Mumbler
Something that's fascinating, but we don't have time for it.Mary BowmanRight? Give me the airspace for that and this episode would be hours long.
 
Mumbler
So your classmates focus more on the local Parks and Rec aspect.
 
Mary Bowman
Yeah, so a lot of our discussions circle around local parks and rec and that's a great place to focus attention, get people more active in their community to foster initial relations, and then they can explore more specialized things by branching out. But as someone interested in working with the national Park system, I have like a thought or two about what the national Park System can do.
 
Mumbler
Yes, please, by all means.
 
Mary Bowman
So I mentioned a little bit before about how there is often programing with local schools during the offseason and national parks.
 
Mumbler
Right.
 
Mary Bowman
So essentially, and this doesn't sound very groundbreaking, but just continuing that, having more outreach programing, partnerships and that kind of stuff with local organizations to establish relationships, but also doing it on a larger, more dedicated scale, those programs can create foundational relationships between kids and parks that lead to those habits being created and continued throughout life. There are programs such as Muddy Sneakers and Wild Watch that engage school age children with outdoor activities and science, and then invite them to a site such as Grandfather Mountain Stewardship Foundation to explore more about what they have learned. And these programs teach some environmentally conscious behaviors to ensure their safety in the outdoors and since they're typically school age children, the safety of the outdoors itself.MumblerWow. Okay. Some interesting concepts. And you said Muddy Sneakers and Wild Watch. 
 
Mary Bowman
Yeah. Science programing that gets kids outside and interacting with nature.
 
Mary Bowman
Helping them to foster a sense of appreciation. You could say!
 
Mary Bowman
Exactly!
 
Mumbler
So, we know what students are saying. What is research saying?
 
Mary Bowman
Right. So, kind of what we started talking about, researchers are looking at does physical activity in academic lessons increase enjoyment learning and does it actually help them to become more active? Unsurprisingly, the answer is a resounding yes. So, some of the studies that I read had researchers putting accelerometers on students and comparing physical activity during the interventions and during a control setting, which was just a typical like traditional lesson. Actual steps recorded were higher during the active lessons students reported higher enjoyment and overall academic performance was higher.
 
Mumbler
So pretty clear, huh?Mary BowmanRight. The obstacle, though, because you might be wondering why haven't we incorporated more physical activity into lessons is the feasibility of actually implementing these changes. Schools have been focusing more and more on academic performance because that's one of the ways that they get money. Higher performing schools are eligible for higher funding from state and other external sources. So that's where the focus is. And sometimes it's viewed as radical for schools or teachers to do away with traditional instructional method for something that is still new and doesn't guarantee the school to get money.
 
Mumbler
Schools are so underfunded as is. So I guess focusing on things that won't help them be able to offer resources to their students. It's not going to be on the top of the list.
Mary BowmanRight.
 
Mumbler
Okay. So research has proven that incorporating physical activity into the classroom increases student enjoyment, engagement, academic achievement and physical activity.
 
Mary Bowman
Yes. And people are thinking about and talking about ways to break down the barriers between children and physical activity and getting outside.
 
Mumbler
Yeah.
 
Mary Bowman
So lowering costs wherever possible, removing some of the competitiveness in local recreation and engaging with the community...
 
Mumbler
..to build those relationships and know what resources are available to them.Mary BowmanPrecisely.
 
Mumbler
All right, Mary, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was an absolute pleasure. You have the floor if you want to make any shoutouts.
 
Mary Bowman
Oh awesome. So thank you so much for having me. I would like to shout out to doctors James and Towner for their amazing research and perspectives, also to Stella Sapolsky because she's been awesome. Dr. James's 10:00 Senior Seminar class. Yall are also amazing. Mom and Dad, thank you so much for getting me outdoors as a kid and thank you listeners. Get up Get out and I'll see you out there.
 
Mumbler
Wonderful. Well, folks, that's all the time we have for today. If you have any questions or want to share your stories, go to the link of the description and you'll hear from me next week as we dive into the mystery of the Durham Park Bigfoot. Remember, Stay mumbling.
 
Mary Bowman
Are you telling me that there have been Bigfoot sightings at Durham Park?MumblerWell, I can't say much right now, but some interesting stuff has been going on down there.Mary BowmanWell, I Guess I'll have to tune in then.
 
Mumbler
Hey, what canoeing in places are there near here?Mary BowmanLoads. Price Lake, Watauga Lake the New River. We can even take one out on the duck pond. There's also Watauga River and Wilson Creek. I could go on for ages.Becki BattistaToday's episode is brought to you by the Hope Lab. One of the goals of the Hope Lab is to conduct research that encourages people of all ages to be active in outdoor settings. We work with students on research projects that can be honors or master's thesis. Many of our student researchers have published in scholarly journals and been recognized for their work.Becki BattistaTo learn more, visit hopelab.appstate.edu. Let's get back to the interview with Mary to see what she learned from her research and how it helped her as a professional.Joy JamesSo, I want to ask Mary the experience of doing your honors thesis and that topic with the Hope Lab. What was significant to you that you think may not have come out in your podcast or now that you're, you know, six months away from it? What did it mean to you to be able to...how does this impact you as a professional or personally?Mary BowmanYeah. So, the biggest thing in kind of just a little tangent. A little bit, I went on my first outreach with Grandfather Stewardship Foundation last week, and that's with a program called Wild Watch, which gets first graders trying to do more environmental education with them and getting them out of the classroom a little bit. My first outing was last week and I was super stressed about it, but I kind of remembered that thankfully the research that we had done was with first graders, and so I was able to kind of call back a little bit and was talking to my supervisor about it a little bit and just the amazing responses we got from their drawings.Mary BowmanIt was just fascinating because everything that happened during the program, what they had looked for and really what called to them and with their drawings was being outside. That was fun. Moving around the classroom, being outside, that was great. But how much they looked to their classmates while they were doing this program. That was amazing for me to really know that having themMary BowmanDo this together and explore things and learn as a group and share their findings and that that's what really called to them. And so, I was able to kind of take that with me as I went into the outreach and kind of keep that in mind and really try to engage them as much as possible with each other.Mary BowmanAnd yeah, that was that was the biggest thing that really impacted me.Joy JamesWow. That is so cool to hear that social, you know, and you and I talked about this as you're doing the analysis that social seems very obvious that as humans we are drawn to the social connections and that reinforces our learning or our interests and activities that we're in. And at the same time, we're both still surprised that, social is really important.Joy JamesAnd I think you hit on something is particularly what Outdoorosity is trying to do is help people build skills in the outdoors and comfort. And also we want to build community and that's social. You talked about Boy Scouts and the venture scouts and then how you welcomed new scouts in and taught them new things. And you were a part of that community before you were even in the community.Joy JamesAnd so I think that's a key thing for us and the outdoors as well. So thank you for sharing kind of that insight and how it played out for you and will continue to, I think, as a professional. So we have a segment at the end. It's kind of a version of Rapid Fire. We call it Getting the Dirt on Getting Outside.Joy JamesAnd it's basically whatever comes off the top of your head and you’d be willing to share. And then I might ask you to expand. I might not say anything. I might join you in that. So the first one is what's your biggest fear when you're in the outdoors?Mary BowmanSnakes. Only snakes. So, I am not a snake person. I appreciate them so much. I know how much they do for the environment, but them being near me spooks me out so much. And one of the things about my job is that we have to hold snakes as part of an interpretive thing.Joy JamesYou still do it?Mary BowmanSo I tried for the first time, like a month or so ago, holding a snake, and I could do it for like 3 minutes before I was like, Get this away from me. It's adorable. I love her. She's amazing. Her name's Sally and I love her to death. She's a corn snake, but just having her on me I was like, breathing in cold air is not great.Joy JamesWow. I'm impressed. Snakes is certainly one of the number one fears a lot of people have. And just even being in the presence of a snake, I've seen people kind of go ballistic and just they leave the room. So the fact that you were able to hold it at the same time, hold care and concern for it at the same time, recognizing I don't like it.Joy JamesI can't do this. All right.Mary BowmanI've grown up with snakes, too. Like my brother had some when I was in high school. There was one time that they...one of them got into my room and that probably did not help.Joy JamesYou found it, I take it?Mary BowmanYeah. My cat did. And I was like, What are you looking at? And it was it was one of his snakes. So yeah, it non-venomous it was a corn snake.Joy JamesHave you, in all the times that you've been like you were at Philmont and the water base one have you come across snakes?Mary BowmanYeah. This one time that I was out doing a sunset hike with some of my coworkers at Philmont, and we were walking through this like it was like a knee high, like really dry grass, kind of like that alpine desert meadow kind of thing. And we were walking and I looked down. My foot was like centimeters away from this copperhead,...not a copperhead a rattler, and it wasn't rattling.Mary BowmanAnd I just said.Joy JamesDid you like, jump up or did you jump and run?Mary BowmanI stopped and I gave it the biggest burst that I could. And I kept my eyes on the ground because they blend in so well was I don't want to hurt any of them, but I also don't want to be bit.Joy JamesGosh, I'm glad you did everything they were supposed to do. Some people's reaction is to actually kill the snake, rather, like you say, recognize that, hey, they belong there and I can go as far away from it as possible. And it obviously wasn't too scared if it wasn't rattling at you.Mary BowmanRight. Right. Well, I mean, the other thing is one of the biggest thing that this comes from working at the Stewardship Foundation are people who love snakes much more than I do. And we'll talk about it, especially during our program of how people can confuse corn snakes for copperheads. And so one of the big things that is a threat to corn snakes is just people willy nilly, just as you said, just kind of going after them.Mary BowmanAnd it's really sad because they're adorable and they help with rodents. Yeah, but I understand that I don't want them near me either.Joy JamesYeah, there's almost human instinct to kill, but. All right. So the next question is, what is your most embarrassing outdoor moment?Mary BowmanJeez. You don't know if I can talk about this, but there was. I was walking back after I left a crew at Philmont, and I really had to go to the bathroom and I was in this like it was like a rock slide area. So, it was like almost completely bald. And there were just a bunch of, like, small rocks everywhere.Mary BowmanAnd I can't make it past this. And I was just like this over there, off the trail a little bit, this crossing my fingers that nobody would come near me.
 
Joy JamesDid they!?
 
Mary BowmanNobody did. But I just remember it was just like looking around me. But also thankfully, those mountains have cougars and I was just constantly like, I know that they can blend in so well.Mary BowmanAnd I hope just I don't want any living thing seeing me right now.Joy JamesBut I've totally been in this position before. I can't say that I haven't been caught. So. But you know, you're right. The Bears, like even when I haven't been caught, you're just you still like and it can impede your success or whatever.Mary BowmanThere was another time. Sorry, I hit my mic. There was another time that I was in Alaska with my crew and we were doing our sea kayaking portion. And when you are sea kayaking and you're on the on the bay, you can go number one in the woods, but they don't want you going number 2 in the woods. You're supposed to go number two in the big blue.Mary BowmanAnd so there I was on this bank and a boat cruised by. It was awful. I was like please don’t see me. But I couldn't hide.Joy JamesOh my God. You know, I bet the boat people looked away.Mary BowmanI hope so. Oh my God.Joy JamesNo, that was that was where my incident occurred, too, was when I was sea kayaking. And there's just like you say, there's just no getting away from it. At the same time, the need is so pressing. But anyway, it's a very human thing to have to go to the bathroom.Mary BowmanYes. indeed.Joy JamesSo, the next question is kind of like, what is your must have piece of outdoor equipment that you'd never leave home without or you can't live without when you're in the outdoors?Mary BowmanI really like bringing a journal with me whenever I go out. Typically, I'm good at bringing everything that I need to survive. So that's kind of my priority is kind of bringing that that journal. When I was...everything's going to go back to Philmont, but I know that at Philmont it was suggested to us to journal we were out there and I still sometimes look at some of the stuff that I'd written and it's just the time to kind of be there.Mary BowmanYou can, you know, be with people when you're writing or you can kind of like find a little secluded place and just reflect on the things that you're seeing where you've been. And somebody asked me recently to give some advice about when they are going to Philmont as a crew. And all I could remember was really how important that was for me to learn how much I could deal with...my limits, my strengths, and what priorities I kind of focused on when I was when I was out there.Mary BowmanAnd journaling really helped me really catalog everything that I did because it’s always want to look back on what you do, but also a little deeper and see kind of what resonates, resonates with you.Joy JamesI think that's so powerful that you introduced this idea at Philmont and you continue to do it. Can I ask, you know, like when you're backpacking, everybody's worried about weight. So, is your journal like a little tablet or is it a bound book? Like, how do you carry or how do you determine what size to bring with you?Mary BowmanSo, I am not an ultralight backpacker. That's never been a possibility for me. I always bring too much stuff. My parents had gotten me this little journal. It's like a leather journal. Yeah, probably like I have no idea how to quantify it.Joy JamesLike the size of your hand.Mary BowmanA big is a little bit bigger than my hand. I would write kind of in that and it wasn't super heavy. But again, like everybody has different priorities when they're when they're out backpacking, whether they want some more comforts, whether they want absolutely bare minimum lite camping. But I like to journal. So yeah, yeah.Joy JamesWell, something we didn't even share. I got one more question for you, but before I do that, I do think it's important to share with the students or for the listeners is that did you work at outdoor programs as well during your time at App State? What was the role that you had with outdoor programs?Mary BowmanSo, I was just the kind of front desk person who would talk to you if you're going to rent gear, sign up for trips, all that kind of stuff. The world changed a little bit over the four years that I worked there. Initially, we were fuzed with the climbing wall, but we ended up separating, which honestly was for the best, but yes, setting up trips, answering questions and all that kind of stuff.Mary BowmanIt was really awesome.Joy JamesSo, you kind of continued your theme of helping venture scouts and then you moved it to college and helped students who are coming in. So, the last question is for here in Boone. Do you have a favorite local outdoor spot that you go to on a regular basis that you would, you know that you'd want to share with the audience?Mary BowmanWell, there are some like different places, depending on how I'm feeling. I recently moved a little bit outside of Boone, so I can't I really liked going to the Greenway and kind of like sitting out there behind the baseball fields with my roommate or my cat just kind of sitting out there. It was really nice to just kind of chill and be just outside without a lot of Pressure, like having to hike out...Mary BowmanBut when I did want to hike out places, I really like the Boone Fork Trail. That's really nice. It's got kind of everything. It's got meadows but rivers and scrambling and ladders and steps and kind of all that kind of stuff. And I know most people already know about this, but it's one of those that you want to keep on the down low because you don't want a bunch of other people there.Mary BowmanBut for the last few years on my birthday, I've been going out to refuge to watch the sunset. Yeah, and it's just a really nice place to have a cup of tea and read a little bit while the sun sets.Joy JamesCool. That's a great idea. Well, Mary, thank you so much for being willing to allow us to share your Mumbler podcast. And the Hope Lab was very thrilled with the work that you did with us. And in fact, we are moving forward on some of that research and going to be doing some more with the drawings that were done after we had the the bug intervention.Joy JamesAnd so maybe we'll be sharing more about that later.Mary BowmanYes, please.Joy JamesSo again, thank you for your time.Mary BowmanThank you for having me.Joy JamesAll right. Cool!Becki BattistaMary's path into the outdoors has now been expanded into research. She became comfortable through venture scouting, determined she wanted to have a career in outdoor education. Then, as part of her educational experience, she worked at outdoor programs, and she jumped at the opportunity to research children's perceptions of physical activity in outdoor settings. There are many paths into becoming comfortable in the outdoors.Becki BattistaCheck out this episode’s notes page for resources on App States, outdoor programs, employment opportunities and venture scouting. We want to thank Mary for her willingness to share her podcast and a little bit about her journey. The Appalachian Atrocity Podcast was created by Melissa Weddell, Becky Battista and Joy James. We want to thank our podcast producer Dave Blanks from App State University Communications.Becki BattistaWe leave you with the following quote from John Muir. “In every walk with nature, one receives far more than he seeks.” 
 

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Management and Physical Education, interviews App State graduate, Britan Sides about their time at App State and more specifically the huge impact working at Outdoor Programs had on their life. 
 
Show Notes
UREC Outdoor Programs
Outdoor Equipment Rental at App State
Handshake
Bouldering/Climbing Rating
Price Lake Blue Ridge Parkway
Rough Ridge Trail on the Blue Ridge Parkway Info
https://transfer.appstate.edu/
- Transfer Admissions and Engagement supports transfer students at all stages of their education—from initial inquiry, throughout their transition to Appalachian, and during their academic and social journey. Please let us know how we can assist you!
 
Contact Information:
instagram username: @britanns
 
 
Transcript
Becki BattistaWelcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Hey, we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by the Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on the health, environment and human development.
Becki BattistaThe vision of the Hope Lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at www.hopelab.appstate.edu.   Hi, my name is Becki Battista. I am a professor in Exercise Science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed outdoor physical activity addict. On today's episode, team member Dr. Joy James, a professor and recreation management, interviews Britan Sides where they tell us how they got into outdoor recreation and how working at Appalachian State’s UREC/Outdoor Programs, has built both their skills and community.
 
Joy James We’re here today with Britan Sides, a student here at App State. Would you please introduce yourself and tell us where you're from and why you chose App State and what your major is?
Britan SidesYeah, of course. So my name is Britan Sides. I'm a junior anthropology major at Appalachian State University. I'm actually a transfer student. I transferred from Wingate University. I just felt like I wanted to be here. I really didn't feel like I was just in the right space. So I ended up applying to transfer to Appalachian State University and got here and absolutely love it.
Britan SidesI love the atmosphere. I love the outdoor culture here. I'm from a really small town in the middle of North Carolina called Oakboro, North Carolina. It's pretty close to Charlotte, about 45 minutes from Charlotte. But yeah, that's a little bit about me.
Joy James Cool. Can you tell us about your favorite outdoor activity?
Britan SidesYeah. So I actually just recently got into climbing, specifically bouldering. It's one of my favorite things to do. I've been going almost every day for the past two months to the climbing wall over at the University Rec Center. It's really awesome. I haven't been climbing outdoors yet, but I really want to do that. I'm just trying to get some people together to go because it definitely could be a dangerous sport to do by yourself.
Britan SidesBut there's some really great spots over at Grandmother Mountain and just around the area in general to go bouldering. It's a really good workout. It's just really fun and you meet a lot of cool people through it. And I also am really into water sports, specifically stand up paddle boarding. That's another one of my favorite things to do.
Britan SidesIt's also like a full body workout. It's very fun, especially down at the beach. And you can have dolphins. I have a dolphin swim up right by me one time, which was really awesome. So.
Joy James Oh, I'm jealous. Give me the timeline on bouldering. Was that something since you've come to app like in the last two months, or is it something for a year you've been doing?
Britan SidesYeah, I've been app since the fall of 2020 and I was really scared to get it. Go to the climbing wall. I started working over Outdoor Programs in the University Rec center and I was watching people climb a lot because I got a good view of the of the wall right there. And I was like, I really want to do that, but I'm so scared and I don't have any climbing shoes.
Britan SidesSo I was like, I'm just going to wait. So I heard it's really terrible to try and climb in regular, like running shoes or tennis shoes. So this year I was like, I'm going to get into it. This is something I really want to start doing. So about September, I really started to get into it. I started going bouldering a lot. I haven’t done top roping, but that's the goal of mine.
Britan SidesMy biggest goal for this year is to do...there's different levels, so it starts at V0. It goes up pretty high into the double digits for how hard the problems are. Right now. I've been doing mostly V1s which is pretty easy. You don't really need a lot of climbing experience, but my goal is to get to a V4 by the end of the spring semester.
Joy James Okay, so let me roll back just a bit. So what's the difference between bouldering and top roping?
Britan SidesYeah, so bouldering is just climbing. No ropes, no nothing. And you have a crash pad that you have below where you're climbing up. So if you fall off, you're going to land on this soft little pad and you don't have to worry about getting hurt. So that's no ropes, no harnesses, no anything. I usually don't go up pretty high.
Britan SidesIt's just a pretty good workout, pretty fun top roping is where you get into a harness and somebody belays you. So you have somebody who's pulling the rope and you're going up pretty high. You could go all the way to the top of the climbing wall, if you’d like, or wherever you're at, if you're on a mountain, wherever you're at.
Britan SidesAnd it's really fun. It's really scary because you do go up pretty high and it's really hard cause it's way more climbing than you would normally do, just bouldering. So it's definitely very difficult. But because you're tied into a harness, if you need to take a break, you can kind of sit back in the harness for a minute and take a break.
Britan SidesBut yeah, I haven't tried that yet, but I'm looking forward to trying it soon.
Joy James So you mentioned that in bouldering there is these different levels, V1 being very basic and it goes up when you said it's like kind of like solving a problem. So the problems get harder as you go up in the levels.
Britan SidesYes. Yeah they do.
Joy James Thank you. So V1 is if I wanted to start bouldering, that's where I would be at and that's just as much fun, if not more if you've never done it. Yeah.
Britan SidesNormally it starts V0, which are absolutely no climbing experience and then as you get up V1 is a little bit harder than V0s. I started doing just V0s, then moved up to V1s and now I'm trying to get...there's a specific problem at the rec center that I've been trying to get. It's the Halloween themed one, and so I've been working on that one and it's a V2.
Britan SidesIt takes a lot of work and a lot of practice to be able to build up that strength and build up that grit because it can be really painful on your hands. I definitely recommend doing research on different holds and how to do those holds because you can really hurt yourself if you're not grabbing them correctly. There's different holds.
Britan SidesThere's jugs which is just like a normal wrap your hand all the way around it. There's crimps which are basically just your fingertips and there's just a number amount of different holds. I mean, it gets more difficult as you go. But yeah, it's really fun. It's really hard. But I definitely recommend doing it and trying it out, especially being here at Appalachian State where you have kind of on campus that you can go to.
Britan SidesThey're super nice, super willing to help out and teach you those different holds and teach you how the problems work and everything like that.
Joy James Cool. One other question with this just because, you know, sometimes it can be intimidating to go to that sort of wall. And it looks like you work there. So that kind of kind of lowered some of that intimidation factor. Is there any other advice for like, if I'm intimidated, what advice might you give me coming in to do that?
Britan SidesYeah, I definitely recommend going with friends. Maybe ask a friend, you know, hey, like I've been really interested in climbing, I would love to go. Want to come with me? Do you want to try it out with me? Usually having somebody you know there really helps. The first time I went, I went by myself. But like you said, I do work there.
Britan SidesSo I didn't know the workers that were there. I think having somebody that, you know, with you is really helpful. It is going to feel really weird at first because there are some people that come in and they are really good. They're doing really hard problems, but the people are so nice. They're always like, You want me to help you out?
Britan SidesOr like, Are you struggling with this problem? You want me to like, show you how I do it, stuff like that. It's definitely intimidating at first, but going with a friend, the best times to go when the wall is empty is usually between three and five. So I recommend going between those times because people are in class, they're not really coming to climb.
Britan SidesI usually go later at night around eight and usually there's a lot of people in there too. So if you're feeling intimidated, maybe you could just sleep and be like, Just see how many people are in the wall. Or ask one of the workers like, Hey, what's the best time to climb? Like, I'm kind of scared to come in, but usually that time between like three and five, two and five is the best time to go, because usually there's a lot of people in there because of classes and everything so.
Joy James Good Insider tip. Thank you. Yes.
Britan SidesYeah, of course.
Joy James So we'd like you to kind of tell us about yourself. So I'm going to give you four different questions I have. So the first one is how did you first get interested in the outdoors?
Britan SidesSo I've always been the kid to be outdoors. Like I always I had a really big backyard when I was a kid and we have woods back on our house. So I was always like going and wandering around in the woods and everything and but I didn't really live in an area that had like mountains or like big areas to go climb or to go hike and things like that.
Britan SidesSo I really didn't get into hiking or climbing or anything like that until I got to Appalachian State. And I didn’t even know about Outdoor Programs until I applied for the job. I was looking on a handshake and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so cool. I would love to work here. And so I applied for the job.
Britan SidesAnd through that job, I've learned so much. I've learned different techniques for backpacking. I've learned how to light a stove when you're backpacking, which I had no idea how to do, how to set up a tent. And so once I started meeting all these people and like they were sharing all their experiences because there's some people that do some really cool stuff over at outdoor programs, it's a great way to like come in and just talk to people
Britan SidesIf you're interested in getting in the outdoors. But I was like, I don't want to be like that. I want to do cool things like that. So then I started going out, climbing more and hiking more and I got into stand up paddle-boarding, which I have been wanting to try for a while, and I was living at Oak Island for the summer and my parents had rented, they got kayaks and I got a stand up paddle-board.
Britan SidesI was like, I'm going to do this! So that's when I got into stand up paddle-boarding. There were some great places to paddle there. There are some beautiful places to paddle here. Price Lake is a great place to start out. It's usually really calm and it's absolutely beautiful, especially right now when the leaves are changing. So really when I got here is when I really just started to like get into the outdoors and learn so much through like my work and the people that I worked with and my friends about different outdoor activities.
Britan SidesYeah. So I was like, I got to do these cool things because this just sounds like such a fun experience.
Joy James So cool. I'm going to talk to kernels that I want to highlight for our listeners. One, you mentioned handshake. Yes. What is handshake?
Britan SidesHandshake is an app that you can use to look for jobs, internships, things like that. There's a specific section for jobs on campus that you can click on and look through. How to get an on campus job, especially for first year students, is really nice. So Handshake is a great way to look for a job here in Boone or on campus.
Britan SidesYou could also upload your resume so you don't have to like keep re uploading your resume and it could just be on your profile and you just click. This is what I want to send to the employer and usually they'll get in touch with you. You also get messages from people who are looking for interns or jobs to handshake, which is really nice.
Britan SidesSo it's a really great app to look for jobs and look for internships.
Joy James And it's free because you're an App State student. It’s part of our program. So the other thing you kind of mentioned other colonel or treasure. Once you got that job and your outdoor programs, you found your community. I think that's the hardest part, particularly being a transfer student, right? You come here not as a freshman, not living in the dorms and knowing everybody.
Joy James So I think that's one of the most challenging things, is kind of finding your people. And some I don't even know who your people are because you're still trying to figure that out. So I love the fact that you found a job that sounded appealing and you got a community, people who are kind of showing you the ropes, so to speak.
Britan SidesYeah, it was really awesome. I was really lucky to be able to get this job. I love it there. Every semester we're hiring because, of course, we have, you know, people graduating, people moving off to go do different things. So if anyone is interested, you check it out on Handshake.
Joy James And you don't have to be an outdoor person. Like you could just totally. So I can work there and not have climbing skills, backpacking skills. I can be a newbie and I could still work in outdoor programs.
Britan SidesYes. And that goes for the island center. I specifically rent out gear to people, so I work at the front desk. The climbing wall is also a part of that. They train you on everything. You don't have to have any experience. Work at the climbing wall. They'll train you all on that. We also have trips you do have to do about a semester's worth of training to lead trips.
Britan SidesYou don't have to have any experience. You do have to fill out an application for that and then they'll teach you. We do caving, we do hiking, we do climbing. So you'll get to learn all these really cool skills and then you'll get to lead people on trips and get to meet new people and introduce new people to those outdoor activities.
Britan SidesSo there's a lot of really cool employment opportunities over outdoor programs.
Joy James Britton Is it still the instructor development program? That's what you're talking about for the training or call it? Okay. So again, for our listeners, outdoor programs, they have this thing called instructor development in their classes that you take to get this training and you apprentice and then you go out and you start leading traps. Yeah, it is fabulous.
Joy James Yeah. And I'll give props to Outdoor Programs. I'm a Recreation Management professor, so of course, you know, I sometimes I'm biased to my students. I would tell you that Outdoor Programstrains, their outdoor staff. I mean, they are some of the best outdoor leaders I've met, and they're all majors. And that's, you know, I hate to say that as a Rec major, because I'm like, oh my gosh, this should be recreation.
Joy James But no, anybody could do this and be in the field and be an instructor. And I think that's what's so wonderful. They do such a great job with training.
Britan SidesYeah. If you look at it just I'm an anthropology major. We have some rec management majors, but we also have criminal justice majors, psychology majors. It's all over the place. So no matter what you're interested in, what you're wanting to do with your life outdoors, whether it has to do with what you want to do for your career, or just because you love the outdoors.
Britan SidesOr maybe you just want to get into that culture. It's definitely a great place to go and to start and to get involved in a lot of different things.
Joy James Cool. I'm going to ask a question. You kind of answered it, but I might ask you to elaborate a little bit more. What are your favorite outdoor activities? I think you mentioned Paddle-boarding bouldering and hiking. And so if there's any others that you have or if you could elaborate on why you like them so much.
Britan SidesYeah! So I really like climbing mostly just because it's a great workout. It's your entire body and it's just so much fun and it gives you so much accomplishment when you finish a problem and like you jump off the wall and you're like, Yeah, like I got that. I've been working on that for so long. Like, I feel so great.
Britan SidesAlso, just meeting so many cool people, like, especially if you go to a gym like the one on campus or there is Center 45, which is over where Hatchet Coffee is, that's a great place to go. They're super nice over there also just like meeting so many cool people, getting to get that workout in and then also getting to just feel that accomplishment is really awesome.
Britan SidesAnd then when it comes to paddle-boarding, I love the water, especially the ocean. I never went paddle-boarding in the ocean because that scares me. That's really there's actually people who do white water stand up paddle-boarding. That's insane to watch. I definitely recommend like looking that up. They're not connected to the board at all. They're just going through these, like, massive rapids, just living their life, like having a great time.
Britan SidesI could never do that. But it looks really fun. But just getting to see the nature and like going out on Price Lake...that's my favorite place up here to go. It's so beautiful and just getting to paddle out into the middle of the lake and just kind of sit there and just enjoy nature and just listen to the birds singing and just getting to be there is just really awesome.
Britan SidesTaking all the beauty of this region in general because it's definitely gorgeous out here and just being able to take that in and just sit there and enjoy the moment is really awesome.
Joy James And you have your own paddle-board or do you rent from OP?
Britan SidesI rent from Outdoor Programs, yeah. We have the inflatable paddle-boards, which are really cool and they're really easy to be able to move around and everything, so I usually rent from them. I really would like my own. I was going to ask for one for Christmas, but I was like, I kind of want climbing shoes though. So I ended up asking for climbing shoes.
Britan SidesBut yeah, I especially since I work there, I also get to rent the gear for free. So which is another perk of working for the Outdoor Programs. So yeah.
Joy James Well, I like that. You know, I rented an inflatable a couple of years ago for my niece to do this, and it was great. Like you said, I could get it in my car and put it on top. So it was very easy. It was easy to rent and get out. And I think I had it for 24 hours, so it wasn't like I had to bring it right back.
Joy James All right. How do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors? Comfortable to go hiking by yourself or paddling board? Have that happened for you?
Britan SidesYeah, it definitely took talking to people and asking people questions. I once I started working out outdoor programs, I started asking people questions. I was like, “What do I need to know to be safe?” Because safety is extremely important. Doing any outdoor sport by yourself can be very dangerous. And our first priority when we're talking to people about whatever activities they're doing hiking, climbing, camping, paddle-boarding, we try and make sure that they understand the dangers and how to keep themselves safe.
Britan SidesSo I think it's super important to talk to people about it. Whether you come into Outdoor Programs or you have friends who are heavily involved in whatever activity you're wanting to do, I definitely recommend asking questions, doing research and getting that information so you know how to keep yourself safe. I also recommend, you know, always having friends is always really good to keep you comfortable, to keep you safe.
Britan SidesIt definitely is really hard to go out there by yourself and try a new thing and that's with anything. And I think just having a good friend to support you or to be there with you is always really awesome. So I would say those two things are key, whether whether you walk an outdoor program to like, Hey, I really want to try this, but I don't know a lot about it.
Britan SidesWe have a massive book that has anything and everything you could want to do and we can help you plan trips. We can help you learn how to pack your backpack. We can teach you how to set up a tent. There's so much information we have in that book. It's our trip planning book, so you're always welcome to come in.
Britan SidesWe love telling people about it. We love talking to people, helping people plan trips. So that's an awesome resource. And also just having friends, having somebody you're comfortable with to go out and to do something new with is always nice.
Becki BattistaWhen listening to Britan share their experience, we can see they overcame a common constraint to outdoor recreation: beginners embarrassment or intimidation. Research on leisure participation constraints for women, LGBTQ and people of color include not seeing people who look like you, body image, fear of attack or harassment, outdoor pest critters and animals, access to natural spaces and economic circumstances. These constraints can be overcome through determining what is holding a person back and what motivates them.
Becki BattistaApp State's Outdoor Programs is set up to help students, whether beginners or experts, be able to develop their outdoor skills and gain confidence. One other way to overcome some of these constraints is to build community or become part of a supportive outdoor community where people encourage beginners, cheer on each other and continue to challenge each other in the activity.
Becki BattistaToday's episode is brought to you by the Hope Lab. One of the goals of the Hope Lab is to find ways to get people outside. Working for an outdoor organization is one way to gain skills and connect with others who are interested in the activity. Visit www.appstate.hopelab.edu to learn more about the benefits of being outside.
Becki BattistaLet's listen to the rest of the interview where Britan shares how they built community and what motivates them to continue their outdoor recreation pursuits.
Joy James So is there any one person that's been a major influencer there for you in terms of helping guide you?
Britan SidesYeah, my supervisor last year, their name is Mack. I talk to them a lot about getting into the outdoors, doing some new things and they're really awesome. They still work there now. Every year we have a different supervisor. Our supervisor now is really awesome to, CeCe. She's also been a great help just talking to her. She also works on the climbing wall.
Britan SidesSo I'm like, you know, “What problems should I do? How do I do this or how do I do that?” So a lot of my supervisors have been really great. And also my boss, Val and the GA Dusty over at outdoor programs, they're both super amazing. So nice. I was actually talking to Val the other day, I was planning on going backpacking and she was like, “Yeah, let me just tell you some good places to go.”
Britan SidesIt was going to be my first time backpacking, so she was like, “Here's some good, like starting places to go. Here's like some things you might need to know.” which is really awesome. And then Dusty is so great. He's such a he's such a great guy. He's been such a great person to have in my life and learning about the outdoors and just being able to talk to him about his experiences with the outdoors.
Britan SidesAnd he also helps do the resetting of the climbing wall. So I can always get a little inside bits of like what problems to do and what new routes they've set and things like that.
Joy James So it sounds like a just a wonderful community of people.
Britan SidesYes. Yeah, it's amazing.
Joy James Yeah, you should be there. Poster child for it.
Britan SidesI actually was at the beginning of the semester, CeCe my supervisor was like, “Do you want to like, come talk to the freshman at, like club events and stuff?” And I was like, “Yeah, I'd love to.” So that is exciting.
Joy James Yeah. Not only do they build you, you know, they train you in your position, but they kind of cross train and are willing to give you advice and then give you opportunities over there as well.
Britan SidesYes, for sure. There's, there's so many things to learn just for yourself when it comes to just building skills to have a career, just building those basic like connections and just how to have good work ethic is really awesome. And just getting to have a good group of people that you feel comfortable around and you can just learn so many new things from is really awesome.
Joy James Cool. All right. This is the last question for the kind of the interview part. Basically, tell us a story about an outdoor experience that has influenced you. It could be a funny story. It could be a surprise or it could be a lesson learned. Is there do you have any story like that from your experiences in the outdoors?
Britan SidesI'll talk about my first time going stand up paddle-boarding because that was a really cool experience. When I first got onto the water, I didn't start standing up. I started on my knees. I was like, I'm going to take it slow. Yeah. So I definitely recommend if you're going paddle-boarding and that's your first time, you can go ahead and start out standing up if you feel comfortable.
Britan SidesBut starting on your knees is also okay too. That's what I did. And I just remember, like, feeling so good. I was I paddled out. There was this big open area where like people could sit on the beach and it was a pretty big area. And then there was like a island on the other end, a little small island you could go kind of walk around on. And then on the other side of the island there were little channels of water and there was long grass. And it was just a beautiful place to paddle-board. And I remember I had just gotten out and I was in the middle of the water and I see this dolphin and I'm like, Oh my gosh, I please, please, like, come up again.
Britan SidesAnd it comes up again and it's probably like if I bent over, I probably could reach it. So yeah, I was just standing there and I was like crying. So, so excited. So I'm like sitting on my paddle-board and my parents were behind me. They were kayaking and they were like, What is it like, Why did you stop? And I was like, Wow, there's a dolphin.
Britan SidesLike, That's so cool. It came out right next to me. And that was just such a cool experience. And so I paddled on my knees for a little bit and I was like, okay, I'm I'm ready to stand up. We had stopped on this island just to look around, check it out, see if we can find anything cool.
Britan SidesAnd so we're heading back in the water and I'm like, I'm going to stand up now. And I got about to the middle and I fell off the paddle board. And at first I was like, Oh my gosh, this is so embarrassing. But once I got back on the board, I was like, You know what? Nobody was watching me.
Britan SidesEverybody is going to fall off. At some point. You're going to fall off so many times. That's totally okay. Paddle boarding is hard. You're not going to be able to stand on it perfectly and paddle for like an hour or two without falling off. You're going to fall. And that's okay. Like, that's a part of the learning process.
Britan SidesAnd I think that's something I had to learn because I'm so scared of falling off. I was like “I have to be perfect. I have to I have to stay on it the whole time or else I'm not doing good.” But, you know, when you fall off, it's like refreshing because you're sweating from paddling. So you get that, like refreshing, cool water and it's like, okay, I'm re-energized, I'm going to get back up, I'm going to try again.
Britan SidesAnd that's really important. Just accepting the fact that you're not going to be perfect.
Joy James Your even like the first however many times it takes a while.
Britan Sides
Joy James And I still do stupid stuff. And it's funny how those emotions kind of come up and you're embarrassed and I look around and did anybody see it and I love what you're advising us is everybody follows, everybody fails, get up, do it and look at the positive and keep practicing. Because if I was afraid I was going to soar, I'd never do anything.
Joy James Yeah, and I'm so glad that you were able to get yourself to stand up. And, you know, embarrassment is a is an emotion. And hopefully it's not an emotion that deters us from ever trying it again. And I think you also suggested your community that you are around without the programs. It's you're a beginner and it's hard. It can be embarrassing and yet they're very nice to you and they're like, How can we help you?
Joy James They're so excited. So I think that's the other cool thing is surrounding yourself with people who support that and understand it's awkward and you've got to be brave and then they're kind to you.
Britan SidesYeah, yeah. And I like I like to think, especially when I'm climbing, I'm like, I'll see some people doing really hard problems. And I'm like, Well, they've been where I was. Like, they, they had to get past the level that I’m at in order to get where they're at now. So I think that's a good way to think about it.
Britan SidesWhenever you see someone that's like really doing some cool stuff and you're like, I really wish I could do that. Like they seem so cool. Like, I wonder what they're thinking about me over here doing, like V ones and they're doing like the sevens and it's like, Wow, these people are really cool. And this kind of think like, you know what?
Britan SidesI can be there one day because because they were at the place that I'm at right now and they had to surpass that to get to where they are. And so like that really motivates me, just seeing people do these really cool things and being like, Oh, I'll be there one day. And that's that's the kind of level I want to be at one day.
Joy James That's so awesome, Britan. So awesome. Yeah, well, that kind of wraps up the interview portion. We have a segment we call it Getting the Dirt on Getting Outside. What is your biggest fear about the outdoors?
Britan SidesMy biggest fear...I watch a lot of true crime and so going out, I'm like, Oh my gosh, Like I'm out here by myself. Like, it can be really terrifying to just be out there by yourself and know that, like, there's wild animals, there's other people around. You're kind of in the middle of nowhere. So that's always really scary, especially for people who identify as woman.
Britan SidesLike that's that's terrifying going out there by yourself. And it's definitely something that I wish we didn't have to worry about or fear about or anything like that. But that comes back to doing that research and knowing how to be safe out there so you can be prepared for things like that.
Joy James I would also add just from my own experiences, because I was like you, I didn't want to go well, I would say I was like you, but I when I first started, I wasn't. I was more likely to do things with friends. It was hard to go do it by myself because I didn't know or I was afraid. And what I can say, as years has gone by now, I go by myself.
Joy James Because as you get more competent, comfortable, you know, like you said, how to be safe. And sure, it's always better with friends, but it's really empowering when you can solo something yourself, you know, just say, Oh, nobody's wanted to do it with me, so I'm going to go do it. That is a fear that I think all of us are kind of like, Oh, wild animals.
Joy James I'm not sure about. All right. What is your most embarrassing outdoor moment so far?
Britan SidesMy most embarrassing. I would say so...I went hiking one day over at Rough Ridge, and my roommate was out of town and I was dog sitting. She has a pitbull mix. His name is Dexter. And so we're going up and we're good. Like we're chill and we're having a great time. And it had actually rained earlier that day.
Britan SidesAnd if you've been to Rough Ridge, you know, it's really rocky. It can be really slick. And so we did so top we sat down for a little bit. I give him his water and I'm like, okay, let's head back down. And this dog is probably about the size of me. And so we're going down and he's just wanting to run.
Britan SidesHe's like, I want to run down this whole path. I want to go, I'd probably fell like five or six times. I was trying so hard to like, get him to just stop and calm down and it was just not working. And there were people like trying to walk and like, I'm over here slipping around everywhere. It was really fun.
Britan SidesIt was fun going out with him, but it was so embarrassing, just like being have mud all over me, like him just pulling me down and me not being able to control him because he's like my size. So it was really embarrassing, but it was really fun.
Joy James Isn’t that funny how you can be embarrassed and have fun at the same time. So, what is it? Must have a piece of outdoor gear equipment, Something you would never leave home without or something you can't live without In the outdoors.
Britan SidesI would say water bottle. I can't go anywhere without my water bottle. In general, there's so many things, but water. You can't you can't go without water. Whether you're just going out for the day, whether you're just going for a few hours or whether you're going overnight, like make sure you have a big water bottle and make sure you know where to fill that water bottle up and make sure you know how to get clean water, because that's just super important when you're doing extensive exercising like that to make sure that you're staying hydrated and you're drinking good clean water.
Joy James All right. What is your favorite local spot?
Britan SidesI really like Rough Ridge. I go there all the time. It's so beautiful. Once you get to the top, it's only a mile high, but it's a pretty good workout.
Joy James It feels like boulder sometimes. It's like you have not really hike up or do some serious lunging to be able to get over them.
Britan SidesYeah, there's some big rocks and like, it's a really good workout, even though it's only a mile. But once you get to the top, it's so beautiful and it's just such an awarding experience. Once you get to the top, it's like I just. I just get to witness this beauty. Now I get to sit here and going down is always way easier than going up.
Britan SidesUnless you have a pit bull with you that's pulling you down.
Joy James Some students were talking to me that they they've seen a lot more people at Rough Ridge. And so they started doing sunrises.
Britan SidesYes, that's think.
Joy James That's a good idea. I had thought about that.
Britan SidesYeah. And it's beautiful. I've never been at sunrise but I know that just imagining I'm sure it's absolutely beautiful once you get to the top and like you're seeing the sunrise over the mountains and it's just absolutely gorgeous.
Joy James I think the hard part is getting up, right? Like I don’t wanna get up that early.
Britan SidesYes, definitely.
Joy James All right. Well, Britan, we so appreciate your time and enthusiasm and kind of your story through Outdoor Programs. I think that really showcases how in student affairs can really be impactful to a student's life and help you find your community and a hobby that's going to be a lifelong pursuit. So I'm thrilled that you were able to join us today.
    Joy James Thank you.
Britan SidesThank you so much for having me. This was a lot of fun, so.
Joy James I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Becki BattistaAs we wrap up the interview, we want to share some resources for you. Check out this episode's notes page for resources on App State’s Outdoor Programs, hiking trails and other topics from our conversation with Britan. We want to thank Britan for their insights and stories. Appalachian Outdoorosity was created by Melissa Weddell, Becki Battista and Joy James. We also want to thank our podcast producer Dave Blanks from AppState University Communications.
Becki BattistaWe leave you with the following quote by Amy Poehler: “If you can dance and be free and not embarrassed, you can rule the world.”
 

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Becki Battista a professor in App State's Department of Public Health and Exercise Science, interviews App State Exercise Science and Chemistry Alumna, Kennedy Williams about her journey toward gaining confidence and finding peace outdoors. 
 
Show Notes
App State HOPE Lab Resource Pagehttps://hopelab.appstate.edu/resources
App State Student Orientation Undergraduate Leaders (SOUL)https://orientation.appstate.edu/workfororientation/soul
App State Outdoor Programshttps://urec.appstate.edu/outdoor-programs
Campus Nature Rx Networkhttps://www.campusnature.com/home
Hikes mentioned that are located along the Blue Ridge ParkwayLinville Gorge and Fallshttps://www.blueridgeparkway.org/poi/linville-falls/
Rough Ridge Trail on the Blue Ridge Parkway Info - This is an awesome trail to hike!
The Rough Ridge Trail is part of the Tanawa Trail. There is a parking area along the Blue Ridge Parkway called Rough Ridge - around mile post 303.  See the map below for the entire section of the Tanawa Hiking Trail.  https://www.nps.gov/blri/planyourvisit/tanawha-trail.htm
 
Contact Information:
instagram username: @kennedyalaina1
 
 
Transcript
Joy James
Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share App State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by the Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on health, the environment and human development.
 
Joy James
The vision of the Hope Lab is to continue developing a foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at Hope Lab App State Dot Edu. Hi, my name is Joy James. I'm a professor of recreation management at App State and I love getting outside. I'm your host for the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast today.
 
Joy James
On today's episode, team member Dr. Becky Battista, a professor of exercise science, interviews 2023 App State alumni, Kennedy Williams. Kennedy tells us about her adventures in the outdoors and how she took a few chances and stepped outside her comfort zone, got a job with URec’s outdoor programs and found nature and the outdoors to be a big part of her experience at App State.
 
Joy James
Today's episode is brought to you by the Hope Lab. One of the goals of the Hope Lab is to find ways to get people outside. Going out with a group on a hike is one way to gain skills and connect with others. Finding someone who's more experienced in the activity is often helpful as it begins to let you learn from them, regardless of what activity you choose to do outside.
 
Joy James
Just being outside can provide many benefits. Visit Hope Lab App State that edu to learn more about the benefits of being outside.
 
Becki Battista 
Welcome to our Outdoorosity podcast. So I am Becky Battista Kennedy. We'd like to welcome you. This is Kennedy Williams and she's here to talk to us about her experiences in the outdoors. So first, Kennedy, introduce yourself. Tell us why you chose app states and what your favorite outdoor activity might be.
 
Kennedy Williams
Well, I want to firstly start with thank you for inviting me to a podcast. I'm a senior here at Appalachian State University studying Exercise Science and chemistry. I'm from Raleigh, North Carolina, originally, and what inspired me to come to Boone, to Appalachian specifically, was my scholarship. Initially, Appalachian State was at the bottom of my list because I was unfamiliar with the area.
Kennedy Williams
I didn't know what the area consisted of and it was very rural compared to what I was used to. So I would say my scholarship is what reeled me in and the scenery is what kept me here.
 
Becki Battista 
So what are some things that you have enjoyed or after your freshman year? What made you want to stay?
 
Kennedy Williams
Well, I realized that there's a different culture around Appalachian as a whole and something that I've never seen before prior to coming to App. So, I really fell in love with the community, the individuals that I met, and the uniqueness that a lot of them had. I use it as a learning experience because, you know, the world is so vast and I just wanted to venture out from what I was used to seeing.
 
Becki Battista 
Tell us your favorite outdoor activity.
 
Kennedy Williams
I would say, right now...something that was really relaxing that I got to do over the summer was I got introduced to paddle boarding. Paddle boarding is really fun, even though I haven't gotten to the level where I can stand up on the paddle board yet. Still just (laughing) Yeah. Paddle boarding on my knees was pretty relaxing. I felt very empowered.
 
Kennedy Williams
I just felt like I was floating and the rest of the world around me was non-existent. It was just me in the water and that's it.
 
Becki Battista 
Have you paddle boarded around here around June at all?
 
Kennedy Williams
Not around, but actually it was an outdoor activity. But I did it indoors. But I can't wait to take that skill and the opportunity outdoors and it'll be so much better. I can only imagine.
 
Becki Battista 
That's awesome. How did you first get interested in the outdoors?
 
Kennedy Williams
Well, I've always been interested in the outdoors. Even as a kid, I would ask my parents camping and if we could go hiking and they weren't into those things, you know, doing paddle boats and going for boat rides, that was fine. But the hiking and the camping was a no no. So I've always wanted to do those things, but I never had a group of people to do it with up until coming to college.
Becki Battista 
And how did you find the group of people here? What did you do that sparked a friendship or a group that you could go on an outing with?
 
Kennedy Williams
Well, it started with “SOULS” being an orientation leader. Our bonding events required us to spend time with each other. And what better way to do that than to go on a hike or spend a night out having a bonfire? So that was when I was first introduced to different trails around Boone, and that was my first experience of doing a real hike, not just like a backyard.
 
Kennedy Williams
I'm hiking in the woods type of hike. It was a real hike on a mountain and it was liberating.
 
Becki Battista 
Are there any kind of memorable hikes that you went on or what's kind of your most memorable hike?
 
Kennedy Williams
Yes. So my first time going to Linville Gorge, I don't know which trail it was, but I've never seen views like that in my life. Because, well actually, having the ability to climb to see those views now on a plane that's different, but using your own body to climb a mountain and to see all of the scenery around you, it was just, I don't know, it was mesmerizing.
 
Kennedy Williams
I've never seen views like that before from hiking.
 
Becki Battista 
Yeah. Was it fall? Spring was there because, you know, it changes.
 
Kennedy Williams
It was during the summertime.
 
Becki Battista 
So beautiful, I'm sure. Weather was great. Yeah. Just kind of a perfect day. Would you ever go on a hike by yourself or are you more interested in just doing things as a group of friends?
 
Kennedy Williams
I would say that it depends on what type of hike. Something very simple and easy to navigate, would go alone. No problem. However, if it's something more complicated and more risky, then I would definitely go with a group because I don't trust myself enough to go on a major hike by myself just in case anything happens.
 
Kennedy Williams
You know, certain people who are more experienced may know what dangers to look out for. I would just freely roam and hike and think that everything's okay, knowing that there may be a few dangers, but you know, that's how I handle that.
 
Becki Battista 
So you talked about the SOUL group that got you into going on hikes. Was there a leader or was there somebody that kind of helped you feel comfortable doing this, these hikes that you now progressed into feeling pretty comfortable on climbing and a pretty good trail at Linville.
 
Kennedy Williams
There wasn't one specific individual, I would say just having that group as a whole and everyone encouraging each other to keep going was really nice. Also just having a mix of people with different skill sets.
 
Becki Battista 
As an extra scientist. So I always think about the technical aspects of a trail, like the physical activity part of hiking a trail and you know, you're going uphill and then downhill and you're climbing over things. There's a lot of great physical activity that you get within that, but then you also get tired and hungry. So are there any kinds of snacks or other items that you tend to be like, “I always have to have this when I go for a hike?”
 
Kennedy Williams
Oh, yes. So I always bring my mini backpack. Inside my mini backpack, I bring Band-Aids. I bring some type of bandana just in case. I also bring my personal care pack, which is really small but has the essentials for emergencies and I would say water for sure, a 40 ounce water bottle and sometimes another water bottle along with that.
 
Kennedy Williams
And then I also bring granola bars and little cheese, little string cheeses and a sandwich. That's it. That's all I typically bring.
 
Becki Battista 
Yeah, I think everybody always has that one food that they always tend to bring. And I think as you become a more avid hiker, you start bringing things like you talked about; an emergency kit, Band-Aids, blisters and bandana in case it gets hot because even though you're in the mountains, it can still get warm and hot. That's awesome.
 
Becki Battista 
I like that. How do you think you became comfortable in the outdoors? What is it about it that that you're like, “I really enjoy being outside.”
Kennedy Williams
I feel at peace when I'm outside. I feel like my body just feels a lot more relaxed, as if tension that I was carrying. While I'm inside, I really feel like there's weight lifted off my shoulder if I'm stressed and inside of my room and I go outside just for a few minutes and breathe in some fresh air and just sit with nature.
Kennedy Williams
I feel I feel like all that stuff is released for the moment and I'm relaxed and I'm just enjoying the sounds around me and appreciating. I tend to reflect on life when I sit outside and look at all the life around me, whether it's, you know, a human being or plants that are growing the grass. I acknowledge all of those things.
 
Becki Battista 
And do you feel you need to go like deep in the woods to get that? Or can you just go sit at like Sanford Mall or out at the Greenway? And when you're over at Levine Hall.
 
Kennedy Williams
Definitely not just in the woods. I try to find appreciation to every aspect of nature, whether it's just a small courtyard or whether I want to hiking trail or even outside of my work place or any academic building. I just try to appreciate every aspect of nature.
 
Becki Battista 
Over here at Levine Hall, we're right next to the Greenway. And so for me, I'm the same as you. I like those little breaks of my day where I just have to get outside and just to do the short little loop around the Greenway right by Levine Hall. And I feel like I can breathe and I can come back to work and get a lot more stuff done.
 
Becki Battista 
So I think, you know, you bring up a really good point about the importance of even 5 minutes outside can really calm your nerves and bring you back to right now. I can refocus and I can get on with my day so I think it's definitely important.
 
Joy James
When listening to Kennedy, it's clear how she grew to enjoy and appreciate her outdoor experiences while a student at App State. While the outdoors is not what brought her to upstate, the campus and the surrounding area certainly added to her overall experience. I appreciate how she had very little experiences in the outdoors, but was willing to engage in a few activities that were outside her comfort zone, like hiking and paddleboarding.
 
Joy James
Research supports what Kennedy discussed about how just being outside can bring peace and calmness, and that outside does not always have to mean being in the middle of the woods. It can be wherever you want to be, including a short walk outside or just on the greenway. Any amount of time you can spend outside can help your overall mood. In fact, a 2021 review indicated positive associations between being in nature and improve mental and physical health.
 
Joy James
Faculty and students associated with the Hope Lab are also active and investigating the links between nature and outdoors on overall health. Additionally, App State is a member of the College Nature RX Network, which is a coalition of campuses dedicated to promoting engagement in nature to improve and support mental and physical health. Let's get back to the interview with Kennedy to see what other adventures she engaged in while being a student at App State.
 
Becki Battista 
So now here's another hard question for you. So think about an outdoor experience that might have influenced you.
 
Kennedy Williams
So I'm going to go back to the Linville Gorge experience because I never sat I've never sat on the edge of a rock before that high. So it just it was something about the thrill and knowing the danger of that, but also knowing my boundaries, knowing my limits and knowing my level of expertise on what I could and couldn't do.
 
Kennedy Williams
But I, I don't know. I just felt so empowered by sitting on the edge of that rock. And ever since then, every time I go on a hike, if there's a rock or if there's, like somewhere where I can hang or let my legs hang, I'll take a picture there. Rough ridge is kind of an easier one. I did one there and there's also another one.
 
Kennedy Williams
I'm not sure if it's Trashcan Falls, which isn't a big hike, but it was still really pretty. It's very small, very simple. But there were so many different areas where you could take really nice pictures. There's this…what's it called? It's like a not a lagoon, but a little pool where the water flows into it. And a lot of people jump in there, jump in the pool and swim around.
 
Kennedy Williams
And I just…it was different. I think it's very beautiful.
Becki Battista 
Do you have a favorite season up here?
 
Kennedy Williams
Summer? Definitely summer. Boone summers are unforgettable.
 
Becki Battista 
Yeah, it really is quite breathtaking up here. I like the fall and the change of the colors and I love spring when the word hundreds bloom. But summer is pretty spectacular.
 
Kennedy Williams
Yeah, I would say that previously I. I was trying to find different ways to stay in Boone. Stay in Boone for the summer. I found the research that I did over the summer and also working at UVA, which also influenced me to learn more about outdoor programs and what all is out there. I didn't know what paddle boarding was for outdoor programs, so yeah.
 
Becki Battista 
So tell me, what is it that you do at UREC? What's your position?
 
Kennedy Williams
I'm just a Commonwealth supervisor, so I supervise individuals that want to come in and learn about climbing or individuals that know how to climb and just want to climb for fun. Or whether it's bouldering or top rope.
 
Becki Battista 
What is your favorite? What do you like to do? Top rope.
 
Kennedy Williams
Boulder Definitely top rope. I'm not the best at bouldering. Like I'm going to crush my fingers every time I try bouldering. It takes a lot of upper body strength.
 
Becki Battista 
Did somebody kind of encourage you? How did you get the position at URec on the climbing wall?
 
Kennedy Williams
It was through a job fair…an Outdoor Programs job fair. I think where you shop for some of one or the other.
 
Becki Battista 
And you just were drawn to working on the climbing wall, even having never climbed before.
 
Kennedy Williams
Yeah, I thought it was pretty interesting. I wanted something adventurous. I knew that I was going to be in a lab most of my days, so I needed something exciting, which was the climbing wall.
 
Becki Battista 
That’s very exciting. I'm thinking about  words of wisdom for somebody that has never climbed before and it can be kind of intimidating when you walk into the climbing wall and you see all these people climbing. And it's not an easy task like I have climbed before and it's hard. So what would you tell somebody that has never been to the climbing wall that it's like, I kind of think that would be interesting.
 
Becki Battista 
What advice would you give them?
 
Kennedy Williams
I would simply tell them to step out of their comfort zone because you never know what you may like until you try it. I didn't realize that I liked climbing until I tried it. My first time. I struggled my freshman year and I feel like we have a really good relationship at the climbing wall during practice and during training. My colleagues and supervisors were very encouraging and they wanted to see you grow at UREC.
 
Kennedy Williams
They wanted to see you grow in your skill set and I thought that that was really encouraging. So I would say for anyone who's trying to learn how to climb or is wondering what it's like, just go for it. Don't think about it too much. Just go for it.
 
Becki Battista 
Yeah, I agree. That's I think that's a great statement. I was opposite of you. So I also have climbed, but I started on a rock wall like I was literally in Colorado, my first climbing experience and then in Colorado. Yes. Yes, I know. I know. It was the same thing where it was. I was definitely very scared. They put us all on a very easy climb first to kind of build your confidence, and then after that, each day we kind of went to harder and harder climbs and I then I fell in love with it.
 
Becki Battista 
And then I moved here and I, I went to the climbing wall and I was like, oh, so different. It's just so it's completely gone. Yeah. And similar, but different. And I was like, Oh, kind of like being on the rock a little bit more, but sometimes you just can't have access to that, and the equipment is a lot of stuff to it.
 
Becki Battista 
But I just loved it too. I mean, it's, it's thrilling and it's scary, but at the end of it, when you get down, you're like, Oh my gosh, I can't believe I did that.
 
Kennedy Williams
What's one thing that you like the most about outdoor climbing over indoor climbing? What's something that just grasps your attention a little bit more?
 
Becki Battista 
I think it's the scenery. Like, I just remember climbing in Colorado and even though we weren't really like that high up, you looked out and there was a ledge and you could see all the way down to the bottom and you're like, I can't believe I'm really this high up. Like, that was…it was just the beauty of it that you can't replicate in a climbing wall.
 
Kennedy Williams
I can only imagine. That's so awesome.
 
Becki Battista 
It was fun. I climbed in on Lake Superior. There's a big rock surface, too, and that was the first time that we actually laid down. So you climb down like you belay down and then climb back up and there you're climbing down like you're belaying down and there's the lake right there. You've got to climb back up. So that was a very strange experience, but.
 
Kennedy Williams
I've never thought of climbing that way. You belay first or you go down first and then climb back. Yeah.
 
Becki Battista 
I was petrified, but I was actually with a group of students, so they were freshmen that were going to be freshmen at our university. And, we took them on this adventure and I had to show them how to do it. So and then they all did it. And it was great. It was a great sense of accomplishment.
 
Becki Battista 
So that's what climbing can do for you. It's like, I just did that. I can't believe I just did that. So it's really fun.
 
Kennedy Williams
I bet. I bet the students that did that, they have that story to tell for the rest of their lives.
 
Becki Battista 
Yeah, we did. We climbed, we kayaked and we hiked. It was a fun little adventure. Kind of got me hooked into being outside a lot, which now that I live here, you can be outside all the time doing whatever it is you want to do.
 
Kennedy Williams
And so yeah, it was my first experience with a professor that taught outside biology. Professors tend to teach outside at times whenever there is a specific lesson that we're learning. And I think that's pretty cool and unique about what's unique about our universities. It's really beautiful outside. So there's a lot of biodiversity. It opens up opportunities for learning in different areas.
 
Kennedy Williams
So I think that's pretty cool as well.
 
Becki Battista 
Yeah, there's a lot of research that occurs just on campus, like literally in the creek and on the leaves, like it's kind of fascinating. I agree. Okay, so I'm going to throw some questions at you, Kennedy, that we ask all of our participants. And so these are the dirt on getting outside. And so the first question is, what is your biggest fear?
Kennedy Williams
My biggest fear, let's see. I would say I have several. And my first would be falling off a mountain or falling off of a cliff, potentially getting attacked by something and not knowing what to do or how to respond immediately. I think that's it. Those are my only two.
 
Becki Battista 
Yeah, those are pretty good fears. I would be right there with you with getting attacked by something. As my friends and co-host would definitely say, my fear is being attacked by a bear. Oh. Second question for you is, do you have a most embarrassing outdoor moment?
 
Kennedy Williams
Let's see. I'm sure I do. I'll actually. Yes, during one of the hikes, I don't remember exactly which one it was, but I remember just tagging along. It wasn't planned. It was just at the spur of the moment. We're going to go hike. I just thought it was a good idea to go hiking in Birkenstocks and the rocks are very slippery.
 
Kennedy Williams
And, you know, going up the mountain, it was a breeze, but it wasn't as bad as going down. So I stumbled upon some slippery rocks and I fell on my bottom and scraped my arm, my knees, and I cracked my phone really bad. It was pretty embarrassing. It's not the worst. I guess I could share another one.
 
Kennedy Williams
Sure. So I tried jet skiing for the first time over the summer and I thought it was a breeze. I was excited. I hopped on, was very confident and the moment that the lifeguard told me that I had to go past a certain line, I couldn't stay close to shore. I started freaking out. I just sat there in the water as the waves went by.
 
Kennedy Williams
And I just sat there and I contemplated on whether I was going to just sit there in the water or go back to shore or what was going to happen. But I knew that it was going to end with me getting back to shore safely or me falling into the water. But I just embarrassed myself because I was screaming and I was crying.
Kennedy Williams
And the lifeguard, he had a few choice of words because he was fed up with me at that point. So that was really embarrassing. Yeah.
 
Becki Battista 
It's hard, it's challenging. You get kind of shocked at certain things and then you're like, Now I don't. I'm not really sure I know what to do.
 
Kennedy Williams
Yeah.
 
Becki Battista 
I totally understand. I mean, we all have some embarrassing moments in the outdoors. So you've talked to us before about things that you always bring in your pack. If you had one piece of outdoor gear or equipment that you could always have, what is that one piece that you'll never go outside without?
 
Kennedy Williams
I would say a blade, because, you know, you can potentially start a fire with a blade and you can also cut things with the blade. So I would definitely invest in one of those.
 
Becki Battista 
Yeah. Good. And then what is your favorite local spot? What's your go to place?
 
Kennedy Williams
That's a good question. This is going to sound very basic, but I enjoy going to Panera Bread. I don't know why. I just love Panera Bread. There's a little fireplace in there and I study in a little corner sometimes, or I'll enjoy a baguette, a whole one sometimes. I have. Don't tell anyone. But yeah, that's my favorite place.
 
Becki Battista 
Okay, now can I really appreciate you joining us. This has been great. You've got some really good stories and experience and things that I think other students and faculty staff can really think about in terms of just figuring it out or just trying it.
 
Kennedy Williams
Whatever it is, any opportunity that comes your way, go for it. Step out of your comfort zone, learn a new skill or two, and don't be afraid. Don't limit yourself.
 
Becki Battista 
I mean, that's the biggest thing is you just got to take that first step.
 
Kennedy Williams
And I want to thank you for having me on your podcast again.
 
Joy James
As we wrap up the interview, we want to share some resources for you. Check out this episode’s notes page for research from the Hope Lab about the effects of being in nature and being active outside, as well as resources on app states, outdoor programs, hiking trails and other topics. From our conversation with Kennedy, we want to thank Kennedy for her insights, stories and advice, which include not wearing Birkenstocks on a hike.
 
Joy James
That's a good one. Appalachian Outdoorosity was created by Melissa Weddell, Becky Battista and Joy James. We want to thank our producer Dave Blanks from University Communications. We leave you with the following quote by John Assaraf. “A comfort zone is a beautiful place, but nothing ever grows there.”
 
 
 

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Joy James, a professor in App State's Department of Recreation Managment and Physical Education, interviews App State Biology Alumna, Adrianna Nelson about her passion for birding. 
 
Show Notes
https://today.appstate.edu/2020/06/26/nelson
http://ww.appalachianaudubon.org/
https://highcountryaudubon.org/
https://www.inaturalist.org/
https://merlin.allaboutbirds.org/
https://www.citizenscience.gov/
The Big Year -
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1053810/
 
Transcript
 Becki Battista Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by The Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on health, environment and human development.  The vision of the Hope Lab is to continue developing the foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becky Battista and I am a professor in Exercise Science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed physical activity addict. I'm your host for the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast today. On today's episode, team member Dr. Joy James, a professor and recreation management, interviews App State Alumni Adriana Nelson. Adriana tells us how her curiosity of birds shaped her outdoor experiences and interests in Appalachian State University.Joy JamesWe're here with Adriana Nelson, who is a biology major at App State. Adriana, what I'm going to do is have you introduce yourself. Tell where you're from, why Appalachian State University, why you're here. And then if you could tell us about your favorite outdoor activity.Adrianna NelsonOkay. Yeah. So, I'm Adriana and I'm from Bristol, Tennessee. So, it's just kind of on the other side of the mountains. I picked Appalachian for several reasons. One, I wanted to be a biology major and App State offered a concentration in ecology, which is really what I want to focus in. So that was nice and I really wanted to do that.And one of the professors here also does work with birds, which is kind of my...that's my big thing. And of course, I liked all the outdoor activities right in Boone and the nearby areas. I came for the mountains like everybody else did.Joy JamesFor people who might not be familiar with what your activity is, what do you call it?Adrianna NelsonSo, I am a birder and some people say bird watcher, but the serious people say birding, they're birders.Joy JamesI wanted that clarification because sometimes I think my mom, she's a bird watcher, she has the feeders up. And so how is a birder different than my mother who watches birds?Adrianna NelsonI think it just depends maybe on your own definition of it, but I like to actually go out and look for different birds at different times of year that might be migrating through or breeding. And I like to look at their different behaviors. It's more of a whole inclusive activity where you look at different parts of their life cycles and you’re more serious about it instead of just casually watching what may come to your yard.Joy JamesGotcha. As you and I were joking before the interview, we called you a bird nerd. Yeah, that's an appropriate word to use. And you would honor that. That's not an insult.Adrianna NelsonYeah, it's not an insult.Joy JamesAll right. So how did you first get interested in the outdoors?Adrianna NelsonWell, I think I've always been interested in the outdoors for as long as I can remember. When I was really young, I rode horses, so I wanted to be a horse trainer for a while. But I also watched a lot of, like, Animal Planet and National Geographic. So, I also wanted to be like a safari explorer. So, I've always really been interested in wildlife for as long as I can rememberSo that's how I'm tied to the outdoors, at least initially, and with birds specifically...When I was nine, it was the middle of winter and I saw this bird outside that I didn't recognize and I knew a lot of the common ones in our yard, like a cardinal and a blue jay and all that. But I didn't know what this one was just a little gray and white bird.And I also thought all birds migrated to Florida in winter, which is not true. So, I was really confused why this one was here. So, I looked it up and I found out that it was a bird called a Dark-eyed junco. And I kind of got hooked on it because when I was searching for it online, I saw all these other birds that I could find in my area and that I haven't seen before. And I thought I was some expert on wildlife. And then here are all these tons of birds I didn't know. So that kind of got me hooked.Joy JamesWell, so you literally looked it up on the Internet. There was no book that you used or anything like that?Adrianna NelsonRight. Yeah.Joy JamesThat's really cool. You know, I'm not a birder. I enjoy and I am probably a bird watcher, but I'll go out with birders and kind of get that experience. And what I remember when I first got into it was having to look at the book and I couldn't hear the sounds of the birds. So, now with technology, it really has advanced to the point that, like you said as a young person, you're like, ‚ “Wow! There's all this stuff out there I didn't know.”Adrianna NelsonNow I have tons of bird books, but that was before I got into it. And there is a lot online, so it was easy to figure it out.Joy JamesWell and I think, yeah, that's a great point. You know, the online kind of introduces you and then as you dive deeper into your interest area. You probably do go get books and magazines and other things on it as well as still look at stuff online. The big thing for me that was interesting about birders is like how do they find out when the snowy owl was out, when it wasn't supposed to be out and there's like this whole network?Joy JamesAnd now I think it's even more expedited because you can see online where the sighting was if you know the right people are talking. 
Adrianna NelsonYeah, we definitely have a good network going. I mean, it's something where says, you know, we can send an email out. We have listservs for different areas like at home. I have one for the Bristol region and there's one here in the High Country. And you know, you can hear about rarities just like that.Joy JamesSo yeah, it's just amazing how connected your birding community is. We know birding is your favorite outdoor activity. Do you have any other favorite outdoor activities that you do?Adrianna NelsonYeah. So, I like to sometimes start hiking in with birding. And even if I don't see a lot of birds, I just, you know, I like to go out and hike a lot of the places around here. There are so many places to go. So that's one thing I enjoy. And I also like kayaking.Joy JamesAnd is it flat water or whitewater kayaking that you do?Adrianna NelsonI like flat water.Joy JamesThere's lots of good ways to see birds that way, too.Adrianna NelsonYeah, that's true.Joy JamesAnd this is a side question. Have you ever found birding has gotten you into an activity that you wouldn't have normally gotten into because you want to go see the bird? Has that ever happened to you? It's a side question because sometimes I find with people who are kind of animal nerds, they may not be outdoorsy, but with their passion for the animal, they'll go camping. They'll go rock climbing. Yeah, you've seen it. People who are biologists go rock climbing for lichen and they're not necessarily rock climbers, but they learn it so they can go see and collect the samples that they're looking for. So, I'm always curious to see how biologists, you know...is it the the interest that drives them or is it the recreational activity that got them interested? Usually, it's the interest that drives you guys.Adrianna NelsonUsually, it's literal driving that I do. I drive a lot in my car to go to all these places.Joy JamesThat makes sense! What's a... when you said you combine birding with hiking, how does that combine? Are you bringing gear with you or you just hiking? What does that entail?Adrianna NelsonWell, whenever I go hiking, I always end up bringing my binoculars and my cameras anyway. So, it does end up usually turning more into birdwatching that it does just straight hiking. But like I went to the profile trail once to hike to the top and I really was just going to hike and see it because I hadn’t gone on it before at that point.And of course, there's like Pine Siskins that fly over and Crossbills and all that other stuff. So, they blend together. I hike to go see birds too.Joy JamesSo, this is the other thing I suspect is the difference between a bird watcher and a birder, what time you go hiking to specifically see birds?Adrianna NelsonEarly! Yeah, actually the cool thing about birds is you could probably literally go any time of the day, depending on what you're looking for. And like with waterfowl, they're not picky about what time they're out because they're just going to be on the water. So, you can pretty much see him any time. But then there's owls and nocturnal flight calls or NFC‚ and you literally have to be out there before the sun comes up. So, it depends. It's a big scale.Joy JamesDo you have trouble getting people to go hiking with you that early in the morning, or is it usually other birders?Adrianna NelsonIt's usually other birders. I didn't have taken friends a couple of times and they usually don't mind getting up early to go on a nice hike.Joy JamesSo good. I'm glad to hear that. I, I had an experience once with an avid birder and I didn't realize what birding was. I was at Point Pelee you know where that is in the Great Lakes. And it was during the migration. The birds were coming back up north and so they were crossing over. One of the great I guess I can't remember what the Great Lake is.Joy JamesI should know this. They were crossing over and Point Pelee is one of the first landings they could make, and the poor little birds are just exhausted. And I had never seen so many binoculars or spotting scopes and the sizes, and it was like 100 people in the forest and it was quiet.Adrianna NelsonOh, wow!Joy JamesYou know, and, you know, you're hiking. And I just I'm a chatter. I'm like, oh, look, there's a flower. Oh, look, there's this. And like, "Shhhhhh!" So, it's definitely a place you should go see some time. I didn't realize what a treat it was for me to see all of what I saw. But I did realize after getting up at 4:00 in the morning and birding until 12:00, how crazy you guys are.Adrianna NelsonYeah.Joy JamesI mean, we went to a bunch of different places, but this is all about you and not about me. I use that story to illustrate kind of when you get into some sort of hobby that you so enjoy and are thrilled by there‚Äôs travel opportunities. There are recreational opportunities and sometimes it seems crazy at first to get up that early and then when you're out there with someone who's doing it and excited about it, it can be a lot of fun and you learn a lot. How do you think you became comfortable being an outdoor setting? Was there anybody who influenced you at a young age or is influencing you now? How are you building your skill set to be comfortable hiking or driving to a place you don't know and getting out in the woods and looking at stuff as a woman in particular?Adrianna NelsonYeah. So, I guess when I was young, just my parents would go with me and so it wasn't a big deal and they were always really concerned about me going by myself at home. They still don't really like me going by myself, but I kind of go by myself here a lot, which a couple of times probably was not a good idea. So, I definitely like going with other birders if I can and there are some students here who really like birding, and there's a group called the High-Country Audubon Society, and they go on walks all the time. So going with other outdoor enthusiasts just in the area has really helped make me more comfortable going to all these different places, especially since sometimes they're really hard to find, like sometimes the directions online don't really go to the place then. So, it's kind of hard to figure out where some of these spots are, especially ones that are really tucked away. So, it's just other birders and my family and other people who like hiking and that kind of stuff.Joy JamesCool. Do you have a birder person that's kind of a mentor or someone you admire or who's really been helpful to your skill set?Adrianna NelsonWell, I taught myself a lot of bird identification when I was younger. I didn't start going to club meetings or anything until I was, I think, a junior in high school. And so, I didn't have anybody at home who really was like a mentor to me. But there are a couple of birders at home. They invite me to go in different places and they've given me tips about where to find things and quick identification pointers. And so there are a couple at home at the local club, but for a big-time frame, there, I was just teaching myself.Joy JamesIt was really cool that you were able to teach yourself. I bet it helped your biology in high school too.Adrianna NelsonIt really did. Yeah. Birding ties a lot into bigger biological concepts, so it helped me a lot to grasp the concepts more. And sometimes I already knew them before I went to my classes. So, it's definitely been more than just me enjoying birds. It's helped me in other places.Joy JamesCan you tell us a story about an outdoor experience or a birding experience that has influenced you? So, it could be a funny story. It could be a lesson you learned story.Adrianna NelsonOh, man. Well, I do have this one story that was it was funny, but it has nothing to do with birds at all. One of my grandfathers lives in Wisconsin. And so, whenever he comes down, my grandparents come down to visit. He always takes us fishing because there's this little lake in our neighborhood. It's more just a really big pond, but we call it a lake.We go fishing there every time they come down and this is when I was really little and I was having trouble setting the hook, you know, hooking the fish to reel it in. And he said, pull as hard as you can on that rod whenever you get a bite. So, it's like all my strength, I pulled on the right and I pulled the fish clean out of the water.Joy JamesOh, my gosh. How did your grandfather respond to that?Adrianna NelsonHe loves telling that story every time. Every time I see him or talk on the phone, he says, I'll never forget that time you pulled that fish out of the water and the same day my brother was with us, he always manages to fall in when we are at the lake. So, he fell in in his PJs. And it was just fun.Joy JamesThat's so cool. Well, it sounds like you had good family members taking you out into the outdoor experiences. I do want to kind of probe a little bit more on birding for some of our listeners that might be interested on how to get into it. Well, I don't know if you realize this, but birding is the number one outdoor recreation activity.Adrianna NelsonReally? I did not know that.Joy JamesI teach in recreation management. I tell this to my students and all the students are like, unbelievable, because we're all about, you know, backpacking, kayaking, leading trips, birding??? How can that be the number one activity? ‚And what's happening is, as you probably know, as a young person, many older people are really involved in this.And a lot of money is being spent on binoculars, spotting scopes, travel to and fro. And I think they also categorize birdwatchers as birders, too. So, when the people answer the questions, even birdwatchers might click it. So that might be one of the statistical anomalies that's happening. However, I think it's fascinating because I do think it's an activity that people grow into. Maybe not as soon as you did, you're kind of an anomaly. So, if I'm a student here at State, what should I do if I'm like a come on, like this idea of birding, how should I get involved in it?Adrianna NelsonYeah. So, there are a couple ways that you can get involved with birding groups that are local. So, on campus we have the ASU chapter of the Audubon Society, and if you haven't heard of the Audubon Society before, they're there. Everything, birds and conservation. So, they're a big deal. So, we're a chapter of the National Audubon Society.And so, you can find us online and we do occasional walks. And if you want to get involved with the local high country, Audubon Society, they are also a chapter of the National Audubon Society. You can get involved with them, too, and they do regular walks. And a lot of the people there are the full range of experience. So, you have one end of really experienced people and one in who are just kind of casual. So, you can kind of fit in anywhere in that spectrum. And a lot of them will give tons of helpful pointers and they're really friendly people, kind of fun to be around. So, if you want to learn how to get into birding and find local places and get some tips from people who have already figured out what works and what doesn't, you can join either those groups, then they'll help you out.Joy JamesOr is it very expensive to do?Adrianna NelsonNo. So the on-campus chapter doesn't cost anything. And you can be a member of the high country Audubon Society. I don't think it's very much money, but you don't have to be a member to do walks. So, anybody is welcome to go on walks.Joy JamesAnd what equipment might I need?Adrianna NelsonWell, you probably want binoculars. They might have extra pairs of binoculars. I think sometimes the people who need the walks will bring into your prayers. If not, you could probably email. There should be an email address online and you can email somebody and they'll bring you an extra pair. Cool. If you really like photography too. A camera would be nice, but a lot of the walks they do are pretty casual.Adrianna NelsonSo maybe a snack or a water bottle. That's about it.Becki Battista When listening to Adriana, the term Serious Leisure comes to mind. This construct made its debut in social science circles in the 1980s. Serious leisure is a systematic pursuit of an amateur hobbyist or volunteer activity that participants find so substantial and interesting that in the typical case, they launch themselves on a path centered on acquiring and expressing its special skills, knowledge and experience. Many outdoor activities like snow skiing, rock climbing, hiking, camping, mountain biking and more can all become serious leisure for a person. We all find activities where our curiosity to learn more, to gain more knowledge and skills, fuels our desire to advance in the recreation activity which can lead us to teaching others and enjoying the outdoors. Today's episode is brought to you by the Hope Lab. One of the goals of the Hope Lab is to find ways to get people outside birding as one example of an activity that may inspire you to do more things outdoors. Visit App State Dot Hope Lab dot e-d-u to learn more about the benefits of being outside, let's get back to the interview with Adriana and Joy to gain some more ideas about how to use birding to get outdoors.Joy JamesOkay, so something else that I know that's unusual and again typical of birders, but is unusual for someone who might not have been around a birder. Sometimes you can identify a bird by their sound.Adrianna NelsonYeah, sometimes it's actually easier to identify birds by their sounds, especially whenever the trees are full of leaves. Like in spring and summer. And they're really vocal. And some species like warblers like to kind of hanging out in the treetops. So, it's kind of hard to see them. And we have a saying called Warbler Neck and that's from like looking way up in the treetops for a long time. It kind of makes your neck hurt. So, and there's actually a lot of resources for learning birds sounds and going back to getting into birds in general. There are field guides that you can get and there are backyard bird guides, so they kind of limit the species that are in those books. So, you can get a little tiny bit and figure out the basics, the ones that are really common. And then you can go from there. And there's a lot of apps too, like Merlin, which is from the Cornell Lab of Ornithology and National Audubon Society, has an app and there's tons of different apps online. And they have bird sounds usually, and pictures of them, the males and females and the juveniles and they‚Äôre from different times of year, so it's really everything you could need in one app to figure out any bird.Joy JamesI'm glad you mentioned that. I was going to ask. I use the Merlin bird ID and what I love about it, when I used to use a book, I was confused by keying out birds or or even keying out leaves, you know, as a kind of a non biologist person, you know, not knowing the family or the phylum or the genus or whatever that was. And the Merlin Bird idea is great. You just plug in. Here's what color it is. I see it swimming or it's flying and it takes where you are into the, in the area and then it gives you a list of birds to choose from. And then I could go and, you know, put in the picture that I think this is my bird and I can listen to it. So, it's really, like you said, so incredible and its citizen science. So, I highly recommend it to anyone and it's even just fun if you're not necessarily wanting to be an avid birder. It's fun to know when you're walking outside, what you're listening to, and you can identify it and collect it.Adrianna NelsonYeah, yeah. Another note on Citizen Science eBird is a really big database that the Cornell Lab of Ornithology runs, and you can enter in all your bird sightings you just put in your location, time, the date, what species you saw and how long you were looking for them. And that automatically gets uploaded onto eBird. And so that gets factored into things like population trends and scientists looking at rare threatened species and where the ranges are and how ranges are changing.And it is real science that this stuff is using. So, if you want to contribute to science, I submit stuff every day.Joy JamesI've discovered another app called I Naturalist. Have you heard of that one?Adrianna NelsonOh, yeah.Joy JamesI figured as a biologist and like I say, you can tell I'm a biologist, wannabe! I need to go back to school and try it. And I just want to also reiterate what you're saying. Citizen science, for some of the listeners that may not know what's going on is literally citizens volunteering their time. Or, like you said, here's a sighting I saw and I plugged it in. And then it's used for making decisions to protect our populations and to maintain our natural resources. And flora and fauna. It really is an incredible tool for scientists to have access to. And it doesn't have to be someone who's like Adriana, who's an avid birder. It could be someone who's just really picking it up and put it in there. And you're contributing to science. That is a cool experience. I do want you to tell me one more story. What has been like either your top birding experience or what's like the most amazing bird you ever saw? Like, because I don't think people realize the passion and excitement that occur because they're like birding, you know, they're looking at birds.How could it be so exciting? And so, I think if you could share a story that might help them start to see, oh, there is some excitement. It's like a treasure hunt.Adrianna NelsonYeah, yeah. I can think of a lot of ones that maybe I haven't experienced yet, you know, like a peregrine falcon swooping down and knocking a duck out of the air. I don't know.Joy JamesThat's a really great point, that sometimes it's the anticipation of what you're looking forward to. Isn't there a life list or something that birders have? You check off your life list. And so then at a certain point, you know what birds you're missing. And so, you go looking for those?Adrianna NelsonYeah, definitely. There's lifeless and then there's like your list and then county lists and month lists and you can I've really gotten into listing lately and that's kind of a fun thing too, because it kind of motivates you to go look for all these different species and it's kind of addicting. And you can also kind of compete with your friends and all.Joy JamesAnd you're right, it's competitive, it's noncompetitive. It's something it's like checking off a list. And I know there's one other thing I think is Audubon Society, don't they, in their bird count, they like in one day we count as many birds as possible.Adrianna NelsonYeah. So, there's I know Cornell does a of what's it called great backyard bird count. I think that might be over a couple of days actually. And then I think they have a big day. I know Audubon has a bunch of Christmas bird counts that you can do. Yeah.Joy JamesAnd through your birding, have you made some really close friends? You said they're very friendly people. What kind of friendships have you developed due to your interest in birding?Adrianna NelsonA lot of the birders at home are older and so they're kind of more like a grandparent kind of relationship, you know, they'll kind of take care of you and take you and your pointers and sometimes bake your stuff. And I've had lots of muffins and cookies and stuff on birding trips.Joy JamesBecause you are probably the youngest person with them.Adrianna NelsonYeah, I am. So, there's there's that. And we're they're kind of like family. And then there's the younger birders. I am good friends with them. I've got a couple at home and a couple here that are my age and they're really fun to go with. And the really young people. I have a friend here who's 12, I believe, and he's like really into birds as well.And he's so energetic and he's just full of life and he's so happy all the time and wants to go and run around all these different places and find birds. Just these really close friend relationships all the way across the spectrum. And that's really nice.Joy JamesThat's really cool. I'd never thought about that. As a birder, you get to experience people of all ages, and I suspect too, when you go to a new place and meet another birder, you're already talking to each other. It's not like you ignore each other.Adrianna NelsonYeah, yeah, that's it. Exactly. And it's kind of cool because you can just show up. Like whenever I go on vacation, I always try to look for they're called hotspots. You can go on eBird and actually find different locations where people are reporting birds and it shows who reports them and what day it was and what they saw. And so, I'll go to these different places when I'm on vacation and try to get some news species. And if I run into somebody there, they might be a total stranger. But we can, you know, pick up a conversation like that about birds and that's really cool. It's an interesting dynamic. It really.Joy JamesIt is. And I don't go hiking with binoculars like birders do, but whenever I'm out hiking and I see someone with binoculars, I'm always like, what did you see? I'm already guessing that's kind of like their logo. I'm a birder. Even though that's not what they're advertising, it's just one of the tools of your trade. I'm going to wrap it up and just say fascinating and still, I'm always interested in people who are birders and bird watchers. Our next segment is called The Dirt on Getting Outside, and it's trying to help students and faculty and staff be able to find or figure out things as they navigate getting into the outdoors. So, number one, what is your biggest fear about being in the outdoors?
 
Adrianna NelsonSpiders. Yeah, that always really shocks people because I'm usually I like to think of myself as a naturalist anyway. And I'm always like flipping over rocks and logs, looking at salamanders. And I don't mind, you know, running through creeks and streams and picking up random things here and there. And then there's spiders and I just I'm so scared of them. I can't I can't help it. It's really weird.Joy JamesI don't want to tell our listeners to take a flash...I don't know if you've ever done this trick where you take a flashlight and put it on your forehead. You know what I'm talking about. Okay, so this is an old environmental education trick. I'm deviating from this from this segment. But you put your flashlight on your forehead, this won't work with a phone. So, you got to get a real flashlight. And you want to be about kind of in the woods and you want to be maybe about ten feet away. And you start looking and you're at the right position to see that. And I'm not going to use the right biology term. I apologize. But there's like it's like fluorescent...bioluminescence. It's not bioluminescence, but it's a reflection. And you see these tiny little pinpricks and you start to realize how many spiders are out there. So, you may not want to do it if you want to spend the night, but I'll put it up in the show notes, you know, the directions for how to do it, because it really is fascinating and kind of fun because it takes a while and then once you spot it, you're like, Oh, there are a lot out here.Yeah, I'm glad for spiders because they eat the other bugs.Adrianna NelsonYeah, spiders are good. And whenever they're at our house, I always try to get my family to take them outside instead of squishing them, because I'm like, they're ecologically important! Don't squish them! Yeah, yeah.Joy JamesI'm still afraid of them, but I don't want to kill them either. And so, I kind of I live with them.Adrianna NelsonAnd if I'm ever with anybody and we're hiking, or birding I always make them walk first in fear of the spider webs.Joy JamesYeah. So, for those of you who may not have hiked very much for particularly in the fall in the high country, you literally need a stick in front of you because you can walk into the spider web. And I'm with you. I always make someone hike in front of me and they're like, Wow, there’s a lot of spider webs. I'm like, I don't know what I'm talking about. All right. Second question, what is your most embarrassing outdoor moment?Adrianna NelsonOh, man. Oh, probably the time I scraped up the front of my car. That was not fun. So, if anybody has ever been to Carver's Gap at Roan Mountain, I love Carver's Gap. And I was up there to hike and bird and the parking lot was totally full because we didn't get there early enough and it was packed. And I tried to go in the parking lot and people were trying to leave, but there were cars along the side so we couldn't pass at the same time. So, I like tried to squeeze onto the side and there's a rock there and I just like scrapped the front of my car and it's not fun.Joy JamesI take it you weren't alone if you were embarrassed?Adrianna NelsonNo, I had. There were plenty of other people there watching me scrape my car.Joy JamesThat's the only embarrassment. That's money. I'm sorry to hear about that. All right. Next question is, what is your must have piece of outdoor gear or equipment?Adrianna NelsonI always have my binoculars, always, always, always, always. And I also usually have a camera. And it was my family's. It's just a canon point and shoot. But I kind of adopted it as my own. So, it's mine now. But I usually have that too. And I take pictures of plants and bugs and fungus and mosses and birds and everything. So, see, those are like my two things.Joy JamesAnd if you were, say, a must have for binoculars, is there a certain size or is it magnification. Adrianna NelsonYeah. So I have two pairs and one is an eight by 42 and one is a ten by 42 and usually an eight times or ten times is a pretty good magnification and times 32 or 42 is usually a good range. You can get less or more than that, but that's usually the typical ones.Joy JamesSomething else too, I would share with the listeners is binoculars sometimes are a little hard to figure out and then once you figure it out, they're pretty good. So, I might even look for a resource to share how to how to use your binoculars. Because I know it took me a while to figure that out. I'd be like, where? I can't see it. Yeah. And birders actually help me figure out how to use my binoculars. All right. So last question. What is your favorite local spot here in the high country?Adrianna NelsonOh, man.Joy JamesI know. There's a lot of them.Adrianna NelsonThere is. Yeah. So, I really like Trout Lake at Moses Cone. I think that's probably my favorite just because it's a really great spot for Warblers and I've been there several times and I've gotten 11 species of warblers in one day and I think four species of thrushes and on. Wow, that flushed a nice barred owl out of a tree. And I found this family of it's a type of woodpecker called a yellow bellied sap sucker. I know that's a weird name for anybody who's not familiar with bird names, but so it was really cool.Joy JamesI'm going to have to show you this picture. I think it's a yellow belly sucker. And I found this log. It had all this little hole, the woodpecker holes and. Yeah, here, I'll see if you'll be able to see this.Adrianna NelsonOh, yeah? Yeah.Joy JamesIs that yellow belly?Adrianna NelsonIt is, yeah.Joy JamesAnd how do you know it's a yellow belly sap sucker?Adrianna NelsonWell, it looks like it to me on the picture, but they actually drill sap wells instead of just drilling normal holes. And so, this film was SAP and they drink the sap out of it and sometimes bugs come and get stuck in it too, and they'll eat the bugs out of that.Joy JamesThat's exactly what they look like in a little well up. This was on the Trout Lake Trail. Go on up towards Rich Mountain.Adrianna NelsonOkay. That's where I saw the little family of them. Yeah.Joy JamesThe tree is down by that little pond and that's where I saw this. So, I wonder if. Anyway, we're such nerds. Let's see.Adrianna NelsonI just wanted to say a couple of, like, cool things about birds, because some people, I don't think, understand how cool they are. Yeah, a lot of birds migrate over the Gulf of Mexico, so they fly nonstop over the ocean. And so, hummingbirds are one of those birds. They're called trans gulf migrants. And they fuel up. They get like really fat while they're in Mexico, in the Yucatan Peninsula, and then they fly nonstop over the ocean. And whenever they get to the United States, they weigh, I believe, a 10th of an ounce. They weigh like less than a penny, which is incredible.Joy JamesHow long does it take them to fly across the ocean?Adrianna NelsonI can't remember. Over the Gulf. I think it's a couple of days maybe.Joy JamesThat's incredible. No rest. They're just flying constantly.Adrianna NelsonRight? Right. Yeah. And hummingbirds actually have the biggest pectoral muscles relative to their body size out of any animal. So, they're really, really tiny birds. But their muscles are so big for their bodies.Joy JamesThey seem to eat a lot, too. Yeah.Adrianna NelsonAnd they actually go into torpor at night sometimes when the temperatures drop really low. So, it's kind of like a hibernation. So that's something cool too, that I don't think people realize the hummingbirds kind of do mini hibernation, but it gets really cold, which is really.Joy JamesNeat as cool.Adrianna NelsonBut some birds migrate pretty much constantly, like arctic terns that go 26,000 miles pole to pole. They're constantly keeping up with spring, so they're always flying basically to where it's springtime and where the insects are emerging. And they can eat bugs pretty much year round. And I believe, was that a god? What maybe the type of shorebird it flies from Alaska to New Zealand nonstop over the ocean. There are some pretty interesting migrants out there.Joy JamesWhat's so fascinating to me, because I when I first heard about the life list for a birder, it takes a lifetime.Adrianna NelsonYeah. Really? Just to.Joy JamesSee. And then, like you said, you just you're constantly honing your skill set and you're meeting other people and you're pursuing it. And it sounds like to me, too, the birds never cease to amaze you.Adrianna NelsonYeah, there's always something new to see. Yeah, that's for sure. Yeah.Joy JamesAll right. Anything else you want to share?Adrianna NelsonI keep talking all day.Joy JamesI know. Adrianna, thank you so much for being willing to talk to us on Outdoorosity. And we just really appreciate your time.Adrianna NelsonYeah, thank you.Becki Battista As we wrap up the interview, we want to share some resources for you. Check out various Audubon Society chapters like the Appalachian Audubon Society or locally in Boone, the High Country Audubon Club. You can join online groups to learn more about birds and meet like minded birders. Another great option to help you get into birding are apps on your phone like I, naturalist Merlin, Bird ID or Citizen Science. Citizen Science is an official government Web site designed to accelerate the use of crowdsourcing and citizen science across the U.S. and allows you to report different species of birds in your area. And on a more lighthearted side, you could watch the movie The Big Year 2011, a comedy which features Owen Wilson, Jack Black and Steve Martin, where the plot includes three bird enthusiasts who are attempting to gain the record and spotting and identifying the most number of birds. And here, I appreciate how Adrianna makes someone else hike first on the trail so she doesn't have to clear out spiders, which, if you have not experienced, is like having superglue on your face and you cannot get it off. Fun fact birding is the number one outdoor recreation activity because we all have access to watch birds. We want to thank Adriana and Joy for sharing their stories. And as we sign off, we want to end with a quote by Marty Rubin. Every bird, every tree, every flower reminds me what a blessing and a privilege it is to be alive. 
 

While attending App State, Lauren Moody discovered her love for backpacking. On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Lauren shares some of her favorite experiences getting outside. Lauren and Joy also discuss the importance of making the outdoors a welcoming space for all.
 
Show Notes
Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail by Cheryl Strayed
A Walk in the Woods by Bill Bryson
https://outdoorafro.org/
https://latinooutdoors.org/
https://www.rei.com/blog/hike/pattie-gonia-backpacking-queen-releases-her-first-full-length-video
https://fatgirlshiking.com/
https://tnstateparks.com/parks/roan-mountain
 
Contact Information:
laurenlmoody@gmail.com
Instagram handle is @laurenl_m
 
Transcript
 
Becki Battista
Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity where we encourage you to get outside and KEEP going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire, and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and KEEP you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This
podcast is presented by the Hope Lab where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play on health, the environment, and human development. The vision of the HOPE Lab is to continue developing the perfect foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out on hopelab.appstate.edu
 
Hi, my name is Becki Battista, a professor in Exercise Science and self-proclaimed physical activity addict. I am your host for the Appalachian Outdoorosity podcast today.
 
On today’s interview, team member Dr. Joy James, a professor in Recreation Management, interviews Lauren Moody.
 
Appalachian State University student Lauren Moody, of Marietta, Georgia, was recognized for outstanding leadership and service — she was the recipient of a 2020 Community Impact Student Award from North Carolina Campus Compact, a statewide network of colleges and universities committed to community engagement. While at the University she picked up the hobby of backpacking. Listen as she shares her experience and thoughts on how to make the outdoors a space for all.
 
Joy James
We want to welcome you to our podcast, Lauren, and thank you so much for being willing to talk to us today.
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah, thank you. I'm excited. I'm a little nervous, but excited to be here.
 
Joy James
Could you tell us a little bit about yourself, what your major is, where you're from, and what year you are here at App?
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah. So I am a senior here and it's exciting going into my last year. Yeah, I'm originally from outside of Atlanta, Georgia, so I'm about like five, 6 hours away from Boone, so a little bit far from home. I'm actually an interdisciplinary studies major, so it's a little wacky but kind of fun and cool. My program of study focuses on community development, so the way I view community development in like how I've kind of approached my program study is looking at really how culture influences the way communities develop and like how culture kind of converges with different things like government and like economic policy and how it all comes together to affect like how people build physical institutions in community, but also like that sociological sense of belonging.
 
Joy James
Sounds like you’re going to be doing a lot of community building and work in the future.
 
Lauren Moody
Yes, definitely.
 
Joy James
That's the goal. One other question. What are your favorite outdoor activities?
 
Lauren Moody
Backpacking, definitely, because I think it's just like a really cool, immersive experience outdoors. But just on a day-to-day basis, because you can go backpacking every day or like every weekend, I really do just enjoy going on like a good walk outside, just being in nature because I think that's one of the really important parts of advocating for people spending time outdoors. It doesn't have to be this big intimidating thing like backpacking. It can just be going to the Greenway and going for a walk.
 
Joy James
Absolutely. I agree with you. I love doing all those things. But like you said, with the planning and day to day are only an hour at a time. It's nice to be able to have those green spaces to go out to and just kind of do the outdoors.
 
Lauren Moody
Definitely.
 
Joy James
How did you first get interested in outdoors or nature or being able to enjoy these types of activities?
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah. So before coming to Appalachian State, I definitely had a deep appreciation for outdoor spaces. My family, when I was growing up, spent a fair amount of time in Jackson Hole, Wyoming, the most beautiful place ever. It's somewhere that's really important, especially to like my dad's side of the family, him and like his dad had always gone on fly fishing trips there.
Then it became something that was important to like my individual family as well. My brother's name is Jackson even, which I always think he's named like for Jackson Hole. I'm never exactly sure I should check with my parents on that. I think he is literally named for Jackson Hole. So, it's a place that is very important to my family and we have a lot of great shared memories there. But yeah, so that's kind of where I guess I developed my appreciation for just being able to spend time in places that seemed less touched by other things in the world, being from outside of Atlanta or living in a suburb, it is city life. I think city life is great. But there's also this other aspect of appreciating the wilderness. Before coming to App State, that's kind of been my relationship with the outdoors, but I didn't necessarily participate in a ton of outdoor recreation.
I'd go on like hikes sometimes, but I never backpacked until freshman year. So yeah, that's when I went on my first backpacking trip and yeah, it was just a super cool experience and it became something that I really have enjoyed doing and get a lot out of.
 
Joy James
Cool. Two things. Did you ever fly fish?
 
Lauren Moody
I have done fly fishing before. Yeah. I would go sometimes with my dad and my brother when we were at Jackson Hole. Yeah. I mean, it's not something where like, oh my gosh, this is the best thing ever. I would like to do it more because I think it's interesting. And like, like I said, it's something that's important to my dad, especially and his dad and even my brother now. So it's something I definitely would like to do more one day, but I have not done a ton of fly fishing.
 
Joy James
Well, the reason I asked about some of the research that I've done in the past looks at how people become comfortable in outdoor settings and in particular activities like hunting and fishing don't always translate into the female experience. Unless they have a father or a brother or significant other who might take them out. Then the fact that you've had some of that base experience outdoors and doing some fishing made you comfortable so that you could be uncomfortable in backpacking, right? Like it was building up that skill set. And so kind of transitioning over to your backpacking. It sounds like that's become a passion of yours. How did you find out about it? At App like I mean, what got you? What was the trip or what did you do that kind of lift the fire for you.
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah. So freshman year it was, it was a big group of people, it was a pretty big group to go backpacking. I want to say it was eight people, which is like a pretty big group, but it was just a group of people I'd been hanging out with. And about half of the people that went on that trip had previous backpacking experience. The other half myself included, had no experience. So it was definitely interesting. That trip as a whole, can I go into it? It was a wild trip, but it remains one of my favorite backpacking memories just because of how wild and kind of poorly planned it was. It turned out to be great. I obviously really enjoyed myself. It was Mount Mitchell outside of Asheville area. We did the Black Mountain Crest Trail; I think it's called. I remember I wasn't really involved in the process of picking the trail or anything because, like, what do I know? I knew that was the trail we were doing and I looked it up before we left. I remember reading it was only for expert hikers. This trail is extremely strenuous. But I never said anything because I was like, “Oh, maybe we were just like not doing that part of the trail. It'll be fine.” But yeah. So, we started hiking at four in the afternoon, maybe, and I think we were planning on hiking like three miles. That was supposed to be like three miles into a campsite and we just could not find the campsite. We just kept on hiking and hiking. The trail was extremely strenuous. It goes over, I think it's like three like ridges. So it'd be like, you're going to go straight up and like, straight down, straight up, straight down. Pretty much. No in between. It’s a ton of rock scrambling. At one point there's even like a rope you have to use to, like, gently repel yourself down.
We just kept on hiking and we were like, “Oh my gosh, where is this campsite?” We were hiking into the night. It was probably like ten when we finally found our campsite. One guy didn't even have hiking boots on. He was wearing sneakers. So yeah, it was just definitely a wild first backpacking experience. I think that's kind of what made it so great. I was like, “Holy crap, I've never done anything like this before. And like, this trail's really hard and like, I'm really struggling and it's difficult, but like, I'm still getting a lot out of it, having a lot of growth from it.”
 
Joy James
I'm glad you explained that because part of the question a lot of people ask is like, why would you put a backpack on that is 35, 45 pounds, go up and down hills into the darkness and still want to come out doing it again.
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah, it's a lot I always love. It's like I think it's a recreation management theory, like type one versus type two fun. I love that theory. I think I like backpacking. For me, it definitely has type one fun aspects to it, but it's also a ton of type two fun.
 
Joy James
Could you help our listeners? What do you mean by type one and type two?
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah. So, Type one fun. The way I understand it, type one fun is like you're having fun while you're doing the activities. You’re doing it and you're like, “This is great. Nothing's wrong right now. I'm having a great time.” And then Type two fun is during the experience. So, you may be like, “Gosh, this is so hard. I am really struggling. I maybe don't want to be doing this anymore, but like I'm going to push through.” But then you're able to look back on the experience and be like, “Huh! I actually gained a lot out of that. And like even though it was hard, it was good that I did that.”
 
Joy James
Cool, perfect. Did anyone tell you how to pack your backpack or how did you get your gear? Like, if you've never done it before, how did you go about figuring it out to be able to even get out to the trail?
 
Lauren Moody
Thankfully, like I said, about half of those people that went on the trip had previous backpacking experience. So, they were able to give me some guidance. And also, my brother had gone to Appalachian State and he was still here in my freshman year. He was a recreation management major largely involved with outdoor programs. He gave me one of his old backpacks. He was also super helpful in the process of preparing me for it, letting me borrow gear and stuff.
 
Joy James
Recreation majors are all over. I didn't realize you were related to one. I'll ask you about that later.
 
Lauren Moody
Okay. haha
 
Joy James
So how many more backpacking trips have you done and have they always been kind of with a group of friends or have you done anything kind of formally with OP or other outfitters?
 
Lauren Moody
I have not done any with any formal organizations or anything. I would like to one day because I think it's just a totally different experience for sure. Yeah. They all so far have been just with a group of friends or like with my brother. Yeah, but I would one day love to do a trip with an outfitter. I'm definitely interested in solo backpacking. Ooh. Yeah.
 
Joy James
What are you thinking, AT, Pacific Crest or…?
 
Lauren Moody
I have been looking into the Pacific Crest Trail a little bit. I don't know if I'll ever actually do it, but I'm definitely interested in it. I think it obviously is an incredibly life changing experience and is an incredibly difficult experience. I kind of like Pacific Crest Trail over the Appalachian Trail, even though they're both obviously incredibly super cool trails and have a lot to offer.
 
Lauren Moody
This past spring break I was on a backpacking trip where we were on the Appalachian Trail for a few miles and we actually stayed in a shelter on the AT, which was cool because we got to meet through hikers and get to know a little bit about Appalachian Trail culture. But I think the PCT seems a little bit more interesting.
 
Joy James
So, and then how did you know about the PCT before I asked you or the Appalachian Trail. Is that just your friends again. Is that how you heard about it?
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah, most of my friends I didn't know much about the PCT until quarantine, actually. It was like, I don't know why. Started looking up stuff about it in quarantine, but it became kind of something. I started researching a little bit. I think I've seen the movie 'Wild' way back in the day and I want to read that book.
 
Joy James
I would say you need to read that book.
 
Lauren Moody
Uh huh, yeah. And it's on my list for sure.
 
Joy James
Another one that's a fun book is, of course, I'm not going to be able to think about it. It's a funny book about a guy. He goes on AT and is overpacked and dumps a lot of stuff. It's less self-help and more funny than ‘Wild’ is. And if I think of it, I'll try to remember before I stopped talking to you.
 
Becki Battista
Isn’t Lauren great? I think Joy was ready to go backpacking with her! As you think about what Lauren shared, a short walk in nature can be as impactful as a 3-day backpacking trip! Research shows that being outdoors can help with reducing anxiety, stress and increased academic performance! Daily contact with nature not only helps with stress and fitness, it can help you develop comfort in outdoor environments. She also mentions her discomfort with her first backpacking trip. Yet through the struggles she felt she gained confidence in herself as well as had fun despite the challenge.
 
Today’s podcast is brought to you by the Hope Lab. One of the goals of the Hope Lab is to further understand the impacts of being outside on both physical and mental health and increasing access to the outdoors. Visit appstate.hopelab.edu to learn more. Let’s go back to the interview with Lauren and Joy where they begin to discuss why the outdoors may be intimidating and not as welcoming. Lauren is an advocate for the outdoor space being inclusive. Lauren asks the question: what am I not doing to make outdoor spaces inclusive? 
 
 
Joy James
You talked about your major and you're interested in terms of the physical community as well as the kind of the cultural community is backpacking that for you? Is there a community that's kind of that you feel that you're a part of or is it something that's kind of personal for you? Like, how do you see it in the context of your major or your interest as building a community?
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah, I was actually glad you asked this question. There's some thoughts and feelings I have in relation to outdoor or community building that I was hoping to get to share and talk about, especially in light of what's going on with the Black Lives Matter movement and how that connects to making all spaces in our life more inclusive.
 
Lauren Moody
And I think that it’s definitely an issue or like a barrier to people getting involved in outdoor spaces is that it's a space that's predominantly dominated by white men or like white people in general, but specifically like white able bodied, cisgender men. So, I think in respect to community building, in outdoor spaces, it's like how can we make it more inclusive for people in BIPOC communities or people that aren't traditionally able bodied. So, I think there's all these different things that go into it and it's like I haven't necessarily felt like unwelcomed in outdoors because I'm white, like I'm cisgender and like I'm traditionally able bodied, but I definitely see it being a space that can be really intimidating for a lot of people to come into.
 
Joy James
Is there something you could recommend to help us as outdoor professionals or if I’m not able bodied or cisgender or any of those things, how could I get involved or find people who look like me doing this?
 
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah. So, I definitely am not an expert on this. It's just something I like and have become interested in especially. With everything going on and like seeing how we can make all these spaces in our life more inclusive. There is an organization that I actually am a monthly donor to that I think is definitely worth people looking more into and like the work they do and what they advocate for. It's called Soul Track Outdoors and it's based out of Washington DC. They do work predominantly in Washington DC, but they like to hold programs that predominantly work on getting people in BIPOC communities involved in outdoor recreation. So, looking for groups like that that are local to your community and have people that look like you and maybe a group like that doesn't exist. So then it's like it's kind of on us as people that do like exist comfortably in the outdoors to look at ourselves and say, “What am I doing to make this a more inclusive space and what am I doing that makes this space feel not inclusive?” I don't know if I have the answer to that. What can we do to make it more inclusive for people that aren't traditionally represented in the outdoors?
 
Joy James
You know, I think, Lauren, what's so interesting, what you're saying is like, I don't have the answer, but I think we should be thinking about it and figuring out ways to be more inclusive or be more comfortable or start talking, having the conversation and inviting people to these experiences. Like you were invited to your backpacking trip and how do I present it so someone doesn't think I'm crazy that I'm taking 50 pounds and going hiking? And because it could be perceived differently from a cultural perspective. Why would I want to go there with everybody. Yeah. A couple of resources in case you're interested. And just for our listeners as well, there's a group, a woman named Rue Mapp started something called Outdoor Afro. Hmm. And it is what she creates. She's trying to show that black people are in the outdoor settings as well as trying to create spaces so more people are willing to come in and join.
So she has done some amazing things with her organization. I definitely would check that out in terms of how she's been trying to build community within the outdoors and then Latino Outdoors kind of mimicked what Outdoor Afro is doing. I'd heard of Soul Trak and then I knew more recently there's a group, a gentleman who's a reporter and a professor, and he calls it The Joy Trip. And he recently had a panel discussion on black people in national parks. These are panelists who were pretty prominent in the field, all started by a young woman probably your age, just recently graduated who was like, I want to see more people like me in parks and how do we start having these discussions. So, it was nice for me to know that these discussions are going and the frustration is that the discussions are still going. And we want to move it, move the dial. And then one last thing I think is important for you that you'll appreciate as well as our listeners. Have you heard of Pattie Gonia?
 
Lauren Moody
Hmm. Yes.
 
Joy James
And she actually was here. They did an event through the student affairs.
 
Lauren Moody
I saw that but I didn't get to go to it.
 
Joy James
I Know I missed it too. I was disappointed because it's been fascinating following her on Instagram and for those of you that are with Pattie Gonia, go check it out on Instagram and it's LGBT. I don't know what their identity is other than dresses. It's a male who dresses and becomes Pattie Gonia and it's just the best name to watch his progress and how he's also been getting sponsors from outdoor places to be able to kind of expose everybody to that space.
And be more inviting. So, I think. Yeah.
 
Lauren Moody
And also they do a lot of advocacy for things like climate change and things of that nature. Like I think Patagonia came out with a video on Earth Day. Have you seen it? I have. It's phenomenal. And I go back and I watch that video sometimes because it just makes me feel tingly inside because I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, that's what it's all about. Like us coming together to solve these issues.
 
Joy James
Well, it's been fun for me to see that outdoor space used and conceived of in a different way. And I think some of my challenges as a cisgender white woman have been, well, this is how I use it and this is how I always envision that was being used. So, to see these spaces being used in different ways and still valued is what's important at the heart of us being able to protect natural areas. All right. Well, Lauren, so we have this other segment that we're going to end every podcast with, and it's called The Dirt on Getting Outside.
 
Lauren Moody
Okay.
 
Joy James
What we're wondering is, what is your biggest fear in the outdoors?
 
 
Lauren Moody
Okay. It's absolutely bears. I have a very, very deep fear of bears. Yeah, I haven't seen one yet. And, like, I feel like that makes it like…there's just like a buildup to like when I actually do see one. But yeah, I was in the Great Smoky Mountains for a spring break, which is like a very bear, heavy area. And I was like, okay, this is like, it's going to be the time I finally see a bear and I'm going to freak out. But I didn't see one. So, yeah, I have an incredible fear of bears.
 
Joy James
I hope your first experience with a bear is positive.
 
Lauren Moody
Thank you. Yeah, I don't know. It's just like I think bears are like they can basically do anything but fly. Like, they're just the most like, I don't know, the strongest creatures that exist. They're so terrifying to me.
 
Joy James
Understood, I will tell you, I'm more afraid of bears in the West than I am black bears here.
 
Lauren Moody
Grizzly bears. Yeah! are like a whole different thing.
 
Joy James
Yeah, it's a whole other level of fear for me. I agree with you. It's. It's it's. Yeah. So our next question is, what is your most embarrassing moment outdoors?
 
Lauren Moody
Oh, I don't know. I have to think about this. Just like in general. And, like, I guess this is something, like, interesting to talk about, and, like, even, like, me feeling intimidated in my outdoor spaces, even though, like, I am someone that has a ton of people that look like me, that participate in it, like I don't consider myself a traditionally athletic person. So it is intimidating for me sometimes to like go on these super long hikes and feel like I get more tired than everyone else does.
 
Lauren Moody
I'm a super slow hiker and like that, I kind of feel embarrassed a lot of times. I'm like, Oh, I'm so slow and everyone else feels like, so much quicker than me. So I don't know. That's not like a moment.
 
Joy James
No, but you know what? I think you're dead on. I always felt like I'm not going fast enough or I'm not able to keep up. And while it may not be embarrassing, it is an internal, um, kind of, it maybe is an internal embarrassment. And how do I overcome that or keep going out and not beat myself up.
 
Lauren Moody
Yeah, for sure. You have to overcome it, but it definitely is hard when you're like, “yeah, you feel like all these other people, like they just killed that hike and like x number of times and I'm back here struggling.” Yeah, it's definitely intimidating.
 
Joy James
That's the word. Yeah, I'm intimidated by it. But, you know, the only thing I would say to you is you're still out there doing it and someone else is not out there doing it. So that is the great thing. What is a must have outdoor tip or item you would take with you if you're going to go backpacking and like what can you not live without when you're on an outdoor backpacking trip?
 
Lauren Moody
This is an interesting question too. Maybe toilet paper.
I know a lot of people are super intimidated by pooping in the outdoors and like it's super intimidating experience the first time you do it. But I think that everyone should poop in the outdoors basically. I think it's a must have experience in your life. But yeah, I've talked to so many people that have been on multi-day backpacking trips and they're like, I did not poop the whole time because I couldn't bring myself to do it. But I think it's something you should push yourself to do.
 
Joy James
Agreed. All right. What is your favorite local spot?
 
Lauren Moody
One of my favorite places. Or like maybe my favorite place I've ever been backpacking, even though I've been backpacking them like Zion in Utah, which is like the most beautiful place. But Roan Mountain, I think, is just a ridiculously beautiful place. And it's also a really great beginner backpacking trip. It's definitely a must go spot because it's accessible to like a lot of different people and also just incredibly beautiful. One of the most beautiful sunrises I've ever seen was on Roan.
 
Joy James
Roan is like 45 minutes from here. So it's Roan Mountain State Park in Tennessee. Did you do that or was it the Catawba gardens and then you went up that trail? I can't remember if it is the Art Loeb Trail or?
 
Lauren Moody
I don’t know what it is called, we went to the highest bluff. I think. So it's only like I think, I don't know, maybe like two and a half or like three miles up on the highest bluff. But then you can keep on going. And I think you hit the Appalachian Trail and there's like there's a huge shelter on it, but I haven't been up that far.
 
Joy James
Okay, so you've made it all the way to that bluff for that beautiful sunrise. (speaking fades out as music rises)
 
Becki Battista
The outdoors is not always a space that feels welcoming due to a variety of reasons - weather, critters, no cell service, risky, difficult and more. Lauren was able to get into backpacking because some friends invited her into the space and she felt comfortable in outdoor settings. In all recreation, we seek the ability to choose what we enjoy and sometimes that choice is constrained by barriers. Two such barriers are if you do not see people who look like you (gender, identity, BIPOC & etc.) and you do not feel comfortable in outdoor environments. Lauren has some great insights into beginning to overcome these two barriers. For people who are comfortable outdoors, let’s invite people into these spaces with us! For those of us who need to build our comfort level in outdoor settings, take a walk daily on the Greenway or across campus which can help build your comfort in nature. Find social media that builds community and helps you find others who are getting outdoors. Lauren and Joy mentioned several organizations that are helping to connect people with each other to enjoy outdoor spaces See our notes for this episode for links to help you get connected with these organizations.
We want to thank Lauren for sharing her experiences and insights. Thank you for listening to our show today. Remember “Life isn’t about waiting for the storm to pass — it’s about learning to dance in the rain.”
 
 
 
 
 

On this episode of Appalachian Outdoorosity, Dr. Becki Battista, a professor in App State's Department of Public Health and Exercise Science, interviews Heidi Campbell of App State's Counseling & Psychological Services Center and Katie Whitley — now with Wake Forest University Counseling Center — about their experiences and advice on how to gain confidence outdoors.
 
 
Transcript
 
Joy James
Welcome to Appalachian Outdoorosity where we encourage you to Get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active, outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness.
 
This podcast is presented by the HOPE lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play on health, the environment, and human development. The vision of the HOPE lab is to continue developing the perfect foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise, and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu.
 
Hi, my name is Joy James, I am a professor in Recreation Management at Appalachian State University and an outdoor lover. I will be your host today. On this episode we will talk to 2 counselors from the App State Counseling and Psychological Services Center. Outdoorosity team member, Dr. Becki Battista, a professor in exercise science, interviews Heidi Campbell and Katie Whitley who provide more details about their experiences in the outdoors, advice on how to get outside and gain confidence in the outdoors.  
 
 
Becki Battista
I want to welcome and thank you guys for coming to our podcast. So, Heidi Campbell and Katie Whitley are from App State’s Counseling and Psychological Services Center. We’re going to talk about nature and being outside. So, Katie, let's have you go first. Why did you come to App State and what your favorite outdoor activity is?
 
Katie Whitley
Well, it's great to be here. My name is Katie and I am completing my doctoral internship here at App State in the counseling center. So that means I'm working here this year. And I think that what drew me to App State was the outdoors. I've always been someone who loves being outside, loves moving my body, loves being in green mountainous spaces. And my favorite outdoor activity is hiking. So the thought of being able to come here and get this amazing training in psychology and counseling and every weekend, like dragging my partner outside to go hiking, I was like, “That sounds like a perfect combination to me.” So that's definitely what drew me here to App State and I've loved it so far.
 
Becki Battista
Great. Thank you. Yeah, there's lots of places to hike around here. That's, I think, one of the benefits of living in this area. Heidi, how about you? So where are you from? Why did you come to App State and tell us your favorite activity?
 
Heidi Campbell
Hi, everyone. My name is Heidi Campbell and I am a psychologist and staff counselor at the ASU Counseling Center. I am originally from the Pacific Northwest, so I was born in Seattle, but spent very little time there, moved around a lot in and outside of the U.S. and thinking about my connection to the outdoors, I grew up in a family without much television or video games, so my playground, the outdoors really was my playground. And I think I really thank my parents for instilling that in me and I feel like I  spent my childhood outdoors. I came to Boone and App State over 25 years ago to do my graduate work in App’s Psych department and was really drawn to this area because of the environment and all the natural resources. So I am a real avid outdoor enthusiast. I spent a lot of years in New Hampshire. My family landed in New Hampshire after moving seven or eight different places before I got to high school. We lived in a small town in the middle of the White Mountains, it was a ski resort in the winter. So some of my favorite activities… I do love hiking and camping. More recently, I've gotten really into mountain biking. I would say that is probably what I get most excited about. I love skiing. When we get snow and I get to get out. I have some really old cross-country Nordic gear. So one of my favorite things to do is getting together with a group of women and going out and adventuring.
So just the other day I was able to take it out at the Greenway and tromp around in my old cross-country skis. I like going out to our local ski resorts, mountain biking, hiking, trail running. Pretty much anything that gets me out into the woods or wild places.
 
Becki Battista
I think the benefit of being here in Boone is we have four different seasons. And so to me, there's not really a barrier to getting outside in any season. I mean, you can still go out in the cold, you can still go out and ski and enjoy the snow. Then, in the summer and the spring, it's just beautiful outside. I like to go on a hikes and to see how beautiful when the rhododendrons are blooming. It's just pretty amazing I think so, yeah. That's pretty cool. So Heidi you kind of talked to us a little about how you first got interested in the outdoors and the influence of your family. Katie, do you have any stories similar to that? Like what really influenced you to get into the outdoors and enjoy hiking and being in nature?
 
Katie Whitley
I would also say my family. I love hearing you all talk about how you get outdoors in the winter. I'm originally from Florida. I'm struggling, I'm very cold. But I think that my drive to be outdoors and enjoy nature came from my family. We would go on just big adventures or big trips and then we would usually go hiking or going canyoneering in Utah and like lots of different adventures, lots of different seasons and places. And I think it was, I guess, just as a kid it always filled me with that feeling of like, “this is so exciting, this is so new.” I liked being in situations where I kind of felt small. Like when you're looking out on a really big grand, vast, vista, or you're in a really deep canyon, I think as a kid that feeling comes more easily. But even now, as an adult, that's what I like so much about being outdoors is getting to be part of something that's much bigger than myself, and I feel very connected to the present moment when I'm outside moving my body getting my heart rate up. So yeah, I would say my family definitely instilled that in me.
 
Becki Battista
Yeah. And as I think about that, I'm wondering, you know, what advice would you have for somebody that maybe didn't have a family that got them outside? Like, how do we encourage somebody? I mean, being outside has some barriers to that and can be a little intimidating if you've never been out there. I mean, there's some scary things in the woods. My biggest fear is seeing a bear. I have not seen one in the 13 years I've lived here, but I still look around the corner and wait for that to come out and my friends make fun of me for it. But, it's kind of fun right now to think about it. But then, if it ever did happen to me, I'm like, I don't really know what I would do, but what are some suggestions that you both might have in terms of if somebody hasn't been outside, how do they get started?
 
Katie Whitley
I think in some ways we really saw this during the workshop that we led together, the nature centered mindfulness workshop in which we met with students in a small group. We were outdoors kind of leading a hike, doing some like five senses, scavenger hunt type things. And because we were kind of leading that, it was a new experience for all of them. I think they’d probably have been outdoors, but maybe they hadn't been to the nature preserve and you know most of them came by themselves. It was a totally new experience. So, I think that sometimes being able to be a little bit vulnerable or putting yourself out there in a small way, you can reap some really big rewards and benefits because we saw how surprisingly, even though it was just an hour and a half, we were like walking around talking that the students really seemed to connect with each other. And we heard them make plans to go have dinner together after this hike. Heidi and I were just so excited to bring that connection to those students. So, I think sometimes doing those activities if you’re new with other people, maybe someone that you already know or trust and also like even if you're trying to start a new friendship or a new idea of going outdoors for yourself, like acknowledging that it can be a little nerve wracking at first, and that's not uncommon.
 
Heidi Campbell
I would echo, I think often if you haven't grown up or been exposed to that, it doesn't feel comfortable or natural. It can feel more intimidating and daunting than it actually is. It's sort of like I equate it to how I feel a lot of times about technology where it feels like, Really, I didn't, I didn't. I'm not a digital native. I didn't grow up, you know, learning a lot of that. I had to learn it as I go and kind of jumping into it and not being afraid to ask for help, but also just having the courage to give it a try. I think what a lot of people find is that it's not as scary as it seems. Also,  that's how you get more confident and comfortable just by doing it and learning. I remember early on having some kind of hysterical experiences around gear of like the stuff I would bring or not bring and feeling really embarrassed about that. But then you learn next time I'm going to, you know, make sure I have just this one thing that makes a big difference. I think about doing it with other people, too. And if you don't have friends or family or people familiar to you, you know, maybe joining a group like an outdoor program trip or something organized where you have the security of somebody instructing or guiding or providing a gear list. So, just be willing to go for it and take that risk and realize that there are going to be things that don't go great and things that go well and you'll learn from it and next time feel a little more comfortable.
 
Becki Battista
Yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. I mean, I also kind of grew up in a family that really encouraged us to be active and go outside. And my favorite experiences really were at my grandparent’s cabin in the woods and just playing in the woods was just really fun. Then when I came here and I met some faculty members and some friends that go outside, a lot, you know, they started taking me places.  There are still a few friends that I have that I know that they like to take risks and I'm aware of that, but I trust them that everything's going to be okay. Like they know some things that I don't know and I know some things that they don't know. And so in some ways, going with one of them, I know what the activity is going to be. I know that I can kind of rely on them a little bit for my concerns, but I also know that they're aware of my fears too. So, I think going with people is really kind of fun and you learn a lot and then you learn people's strengths and weaknesses and can go as a group. So, I think that's really some great points that you guys bring up. So, we kind of talked a little bit too about kind of becoming comfortable in the outdoors and maybe equipment. So, what is one thing that you always like to bring with you when you go outside? Like, what's that one thing that always needs to come along?
 
Katie Whitley
Well, I feel like this doesn't fall quite under equipment, but I have been known to get really excited about a hike and just like to jump out into it and not bring any food. So, snacks are really important. I think I get so wrapped up in like, you know, going up the trail, getting really excited and I realize I've left my partner behind and he's like, “Where's the food?”  And I’m like, “I don't have it. I thought you were bringing it.” So, I would say food because I think not being “hangry” helps to keep you in the present moment and enjoying what's going on for you, enjoying the climb, getting up that trail. Actually now I really love stopping along the way and like sitting and having a snack and talking with the people that I'm hiking with and just knowing that like you don't have to rush to get to like the view or the final place. I think the journey is also important and it's important to fuel yourself.
 
Heidi Campbell
I have several pieces of gear that I love and have become attached to. Like I am very, very in love with my mountain bike. But that's a more kind of elaborate thing. But in terms of just like day-to-day gear, especially if I'm out on something a little bit more extended, warm socks to me just have almost like karmic power. If I'm like on a multi-day or even like a long, long day being able to change socks, even if I'm just out for the day, like I will pack warm fuzzy socks to change into or out of my hiking shoes or boots or my mountain biking shoes or like when I get out on my ski boots. I just I love the comfort of warm socks. I would say in terms of practically probably my raincoat, I learned the hard way early on to not be prepared to stay dry. Gear has come a long way. And you know, I think we're fortunate in this area because we have Re-Gear where people can go, students can go and find more affordable, good gear that is lightweight. I have had like learned the hard way and over the years, just like, have a nice, lightweight, pretty foolproof, rain proof jacket that comes with me that can roll into a little ball and go into, like, a fanny pack or a backpack, but warm socks, knowing that I have those there like to change into, makes me happy.
 
Becki Battista
Yeah, I have to think about that next time I go out that's a really nice added benefit to on your finishing anything because I know in the summer I like to just take my shoes off. I mean because your feet are just kind of swollen and just feels good. I have kind of a hand thing, so I always like my hands to be warm, so I've got to change my gloves and make sure that my hands are safe, nice and comfortable too. So that's pretty cool. I enjoy your stories and your favorite items that you have. One of the other things we can kind of think about is like, how do you think you’ve become more comfortable in the outdoors? We kind of talked about this a little bit, but are there other ideas about comfort like how did you become more comfortable on some of the things that you have done in your past?
 
Katie Whitley
I think it definitely helps to have some of those early experiences where I was doing those things with other people. But, I also know that for me, being outdoors brings that sense of curiosity and excitement, like being able to explore, you know, or see something that you've never seen before. Like I've never looked off of this, you know, like Blue Ridge outlook and seeing this, you know, expansive view before. So, it's kind of like I'm really enjoying seeking out those new experiences. So I think it brought me a little bit of comfort to know that like some of these things I can choose if I don't want to go all the way on a really, really long hike that lasts all day long, like, maybe like my body's not up for that today. Maybe for today, I just want to, you know, move my body in a gentle way or what would make me feel really connected to nature today. Sometimes that is a super long hike where you need those warm socks and you need those experiences, but sometimes it's just getting outdoors and driving along the parkway. So, I think even acknowledging for yourself what will make you feel the most comfortable and then kind of building on that over time because there's no one right way to be outdoors. And I think even hearing your experiences, like we all have different experiences of hiking or mountain biking and how long we go for and like what we like to bring, which I think is really powerful. Like if we all went on a hike together, we would all bring different, important pieces that would help us to have a good time and have a great experience.
 
Heidi Campbell
I mentioned growing up in a family that really got me outside, but I was really blessed to go to a high school in New Hampshire that had a really active outing program, so similar to our local high school here. Watauga Mountain Alliance offers this fabulous opportunity for any student, regardless of financial means, to be able to get out and do regular trips and extended trips. So,  I had a high school that had an out outing club that I was really active in and where we would just go out pretty regularly. I feel like thinking back on that, I got exposed to all different kinds of weather and places and environments that stretched me sometimes. One of the programs that we did in my high school was in the middle of the winter in New Hampshire, in the White Mountains. It was a ten-day program for all during junior year, third year of high school that included a solo experience in the middle. It was a three day solo and when I look back at that, I'm like, yikes, I can't believe they had us all do that I got through that. But so, I think the more experiences you have that kind of stretch you where you realize, “I can, I can be in like a downpour and get through that or be in the cold and learn to kind of survive that or figure out that.” There's so much that is unpredictable in the outdoors and novel. I think learning that you can kind of face those challenges. I think about just spending time. Then, the other piece for me I think is having worked at camps right after college as a like a camp counselor. I led trips and got some learn some hard skills such as like for example just getting comfortable like it was really daunting to me like setting up a tent and a stove and things like that or and so getting some experience, getting some instruction in that to where I just felt like the more, I did that now if I were to try today, I'd have to be really rusty because I haven't done that in a while. So, I think taking advantage of, you know, classes you might take, you know, around, like if you're somebody that gets really excited about it, maybe you decide to take like a wilderness first aid class so that you feel comfortable if there was an emergency that came up or if you're going to be doing more mild outdoor activities, becoming familiar with like reading a map. Just learning some of the skills that just like I had just signed up to do like a bike maintenance class for women because that's an area that feels really scary to me if I'm like out on a trail and I can do basic bike maintenance, but not a lot beyond that. So, I am going to try to do this series of classes where I can really understand how to fix my bike and not have to rely on other people around me, which often tends to be men who have those skills. That's been helpful for me and being more comfortable and getting to pick up some of those skills along the way.
 
Becki Battista
Yeah, and I think that's a great point, you that there is no one way to do outside activity. You can do activity outside however you want. And I think that's the important piece to think about. You can go stay outside and camp for, you know, a day or five days or you can just go and drive on the parkway and look at the overlook. Any of that still as being outside.
You’re still kind of getting that benefit in terms of mental health, physical health, and just looking at something that's just absolutely beautiful and just breathe. And so I think that's a benefit of us living in the environment and the area that we live in is that we have those opportunities and that's kind of nice because I do think we can do it however we want to do it.
We can be active outside in whatever way fits us best. And then the more comfortable we come with those short bouts, then the longer bouts become a little bit easier and a little bit more comfortable. That's great.
 
 
 
Joy James
Listening to these stories hopefully makes you think about ways you can get outside or new things you wish to try. Putting yourself out there, while challenging, can lead to great experiences, new friendships and an increased self-confidence. Evidence suggests exercise outside can lead to greater feelings of increased energy, motivation and a positive engagement compared to exercise indoors. Additionally, recent research has indicated decreases in tension, anger and depression are also associated with being active outside. One of the goals of the HOPE Lab is to further understand the impacts of being outside on both physical and mental health.  Visit www.appstate.hopelab.edu to learn more.  Now let’s listen to more stories and experiences from Heidi and Katie!
 
Becki Battista
Okay, so tell us a story about an outdoor experience that has influenced you. It can be something funny, any lesson learned. So, what is one particular event that really kind of influenced you?
 
Katie Whitley
I feel like I have so many. I am thinking about a time in which I went on a trip with my family and we were canyoneering and like going deep down like into a canyon and then hiking back up probably somewhere within like Utah or like the Four Corners states. It was like an intense experience and it was really fun up until the point that we had to rappel down into like a ravine and no one had prepared me for that. I don't know how to do that. The guides were really kind and really nice. And I watched, I think maybe like my dad went down first and I was like, “okay, I can, I can do that.” A lot of like false confidence there, but I kind of like rappelled down over the edge. And then I looked down behind me, which was my first mistake, and I got really scared. I kind of just like, like a pinball machine, just like pinballed back and forth between the walls of this ravine just hanging on to this rope. And, you know, I made it down eventually, but I think the way that that influenced me is that it was really scary and it was something that came up in the middle of a trip that I was like, I had no idea I needed to do this.
And I think that it really helped to make me feel more, I guess adaptable, but also just acknowledged that, like, you can do hard things and feel a little bit scared and keep going. We still then went deeper into this ravine and then hiked all the way back up out of the ravine and had lots of like funny stories after that. Like my mom’s shoe literally, like, broke open and we had to like tie it together and you know, even to this day, like we talk often about that trip and about I remember that time that Katie was like a pinball, you know, like, you know, being able to share those memories with the people around you I think is really important. So, I feel like that had a big influence on not letting hard things keep you kind of like what you were just saying, like not feeling a bit overwhelmed or scared or nervous, keep you from doing something that will be an awesome experience. Like, did it hurt a little bit? Yes, but it's a really good story that I love that is a part of my family now.
 
Heidi Campbell
So, I think I mentioned that I spent my high school years in New Hampshire and it's a pretty mountainous state. And there is this legendary area on the side of Mount Washington called Tuckerman Ravine, which is this kind of head wall that you can ski. During certain times of the winter there’s conditions where you can ski it. You have to hike in. It's kind of a big adventure and you hike in for like an hour, an hour and a half with all your gear and then you hike around the side of the head wall and then you can ski down. And so, this was sometime toward the end of high school or early college. I was with a group of friends. Part of why this story is so memorable to me is the people that I was with. Most of my fond memories in the outdoors have to do with the companionship of being with friends or family. And you know, the story, the adventures that you share and the memories that you make. So, this was a group of friends, so we were all pretty young. I think this might have been the first time for most of us up there, but  one of the friends I was with had a dog, their dog with them, and before we knew it, the dog had climbed up and gotten into this really precarious part, like up on the top of the head wall where they were obviously like panicked and we could hear them sort of yelping and they could not get down.
They couldn't go up. They couldn't, they were stuck. And so, my friend and I, without thinking, we were not being very thoughtful or rational as sometimes happens and you know, because this animal was in danger we just started going after it. I think we were probably in our ski boots and were hiking up this head wall and we got ourselves into a really precarious position that could have actually been pretty scary. I laugh about it now, but at the time it was pretty scary where we were sort of hiking and we looked down and there's like running water beneath us, like the meltwater of this snowy head wall that if we had, you know, fallen through could have been really dangerous. So, we look at each other and, you know, we're trying to get this dog and we are just stuck and panicked and like the dog, we can't really go any farther. We can't go back down because of where we were. It all ended up being, okay, somebody came to assist and we got the dog and we were able to get down safely but that adventure stands on my mind because I learned a lot of things and one of them was just the value of being and trusting people that are with you, but also being able to stay calm in situations. Because, I think if we had panicked and tried to really react in that moment, we, you know, might have fallen through the snow that we were on. I think about that often when I'm in situations that scare me or I'll just take a couple of deep breaths and slow down and calm and realize that, you know, I can kind of get myself out of this and rely on other people if needed.
So, it's one story that has stuck with me.
 
Becki Battista
That is great and we're all happy that the dog was saved, too. Okay. So in kind of our last segment here, we're going to talk about “The Dirt on Getting Outside.” I have a few questions for both of you. And my first question is, what is your biggest fear?
 
Katie Whitley
Well, coming from living in Miami…living in Florida, My biggest fear is sharks. I'm terrified of sharks. I don't go in the ocean. Let's say it sounds really counterproductive for someone who should be enjoying the ocean. Like, I'm not an ocean life snorkeling kind of girl. Like, really could not. Yeah, I really don't want to go into that.
 
Heidi Campbell
I do not like feeling out of control. So, I've always kind of lived by this rule. When I’m skiing and mountain biking, I never go faster than I'm willing to hit a tree. I know that sounds kind of strange but I do not like feeling like things are out of control. When I think about being outdoors and some of the activities I do, I tend to like to plan a lot or make less. So even if I'm just going out for the day and my husband, who's also an outdoor enthusiast and my kids will laugh at me, you know, I'll make these lists and I'll pack up the night before to make sure, like, I have everything. So, winging it, you know, just kind of going by the seat of my pants, like, scares the heck out of me. So, yeah, I do not like being out of control.
 
Becki Battista
Yeah, I can understand that. I'm probably the slowest one going down the hill. I'm great at climbing a hill, but then down the hill I'm like, “Ooh, I don't know about this. It's a little scary.” Yeah, I completely understand. Okay, so the second question for this section is, what is your most embarrassing outdoor moment that you're willing to share with us?
 
Katie Whitley
I just talked about this with Heidi I said, “I don't think I can share my most embarrassing moments,” so I don't want anyone to know about that. But I'll take a moderate, mid-level, embarrassing moment. On one of the last hikes I went on with my friends from grad school back in Louisville, we set out to go on this really beautiful hike that was a circular hike. And the first decision we could have made, like left or right, we picked the wrong decision. We went on the completely wrong trail that ended up being like an out and back ten miles, which we were not prepared to do. I was like, “Why aren't we going in a circle? Does it make any sense?” So, we got very lost and we ended up having to turn around in a graveyard and we were like in the middle of the woods. So, we laugh about it now, but I definitely remember thinking, “I can't wait to get back to the car. I'm very tired.”
 
Heidi Campbell
So, I have a tendency to take spectacular falls, like just out of the blue when I am just hiking or backpacking or sometimes running. Sometimes it involves tripping on roots, but I generally feel like I'm pretty coordinated, but when I fall it's kind of like a sack of potatoes. I was out on a trail run on the Mountains to Sea trail, which is a really awesome trail that goes through our area. It iskind of like the Appalachian Trail but it traverses North Carolina, I believe, and just goes right through our community and there's stretches of it that are just so beautiful. So, this was an area east, kind of off the parkway, on the mountains to sea trail. I was running and it was at the end of our run, this beautiful trail, and I tripped. I still don't know what I caught my foot on. I fell so hard that I had mulch from the trail. Fortunately, it was not like Rocky, or particularly there weren't like sharp objects. But I had mulch like in my nose, in my mouth, in my ears. I don't know how I got mulch in so many places. This older couple came up behind me and I think I was kind of in shock and I was just sitting there. I wasn't aware that I was covered in mulch like a Chia Pet. They came up and they were just looking at me like, “What on earth? are you okay? What happened?” I was just kind of like breathing and trying to make sure I hadn't broken any bones. They were looking at me and then I assured them I was okay. I got to my husband who was like way ahead of me, as he always is running…I got to him and he's like looking at me and I realized that have all this mulch like in every, like, space. So, then I realized that's why those people were looking at me like I was some kind of, like, woodland creature. So, one of many embarrassing moments I've had.
 
Becki Battista
Yeah, I have a few of those stories too, with some rips in my pants, my leggings from falling, you know. You always seem to fall in front of people like you never fall on your own. You always take your best falls when there's people around and you're like, “Oh, great. Okay!”  Thank you both for sharing that. So, my next question is, what is the must have piece of outdoor equipment that you never leave home without, no matter the weather or conditions?
 
Katie Whitley
I would say my boots, I feel like I have a really good pair of boots now and I finally broke them in adequately. So I just love having my boots. And kind of similar to what Heidi said, I love having socks, but for me, it's not so much the warmth. It's like the funky “funness” of the sock. I like to make my socks bright or colorful or have fun things on them, like mountain ranges, things like that. So, I like to coordinate my outfit with my socks.
 
Heidi Campbell
I would probably say my water bottle. summer, winter, rain or shine, that's probably something that I would like if I had to pick one thing that I would take with me and also has, you know, some karmic value. I think, like I think of the students that I work with and see when they like come into my office and all the stickers and the ways that you can express yourself with your water bottle that you know, the type of the water bottle, the color and then stickering it up.
But yeah, hydration is good. Don't want to get dehydrated. I've definitely had experiences where I've learned the hard way, where I've gotten out and not eaten or not had enough to drink and definitely paid the price and it doesn't feel very good. So, that would be something I would probably always have.
 
Becki Battista
Yeah, I think water bottles are kind of like your favorite pen or pencil, right? Like, you can't leave home without it. And it's just that that other pencil just doesn't feel right. I need to have a water bottle with all my favorite stickers on it. Yeah, I totally agree. So, what is your favorite local spot? Where do you like to go? What's your favorite one?
 
Katie Whitley
I really loved hiking out to Hebron Falls (Boone Fork Trail). The hike out to the Falls is really good and pretty rigorous in some areas. When you get to the base of the falls it is just huge rocks. I think that speaks to what I shared earlier. I enjoy being in front of something that's so big that it makes you feel kind of small and I love that you can climb up those rocks to get to the top where the waterfall is. It’s just an adventure within an adventure. I've been there so far in the summer, which is really hot and really fun. I got to get into the waterfall a little bit and like to cool off. But, even recently, like in the winter time, some of the water was frozen and just being able to have that adventure and have that big climbing experience and all those different seasons was really exciting to me.
 
Heidi Campbell
So, I really love Moses Cone Park. There's something like 27 miles of these carriage trails. It was in an estate of this blue jean-denim baron I think maybe from Greensboro. It was their summer playground. So, they developed it. They had horses and carriages and they developed all these just beautiful trails. It’s so different. Becki was talking about the four seasons and how, you know, just when you're getting tired of winter, spring pops up and you can start to see the flowers and a little bit of warm sunshine and at Moses Cone, you really notice those seasonal changes. There's some lakes and ponds and so they'll freeze over and the colors in the fall there are just beautiful. So, I have really fond memories of when my kids were really little of going out, having them in their baby jogger type of stroller we had where we could push them or run with them out there and they're nice, like gradual trails. So, it's a nice place to take family when they come to visit who maybe aren't as comfortable on steeper or rockier trails. There are so many different trails that you can, you know, not repeat yourself or do the same loop. You could go out there a hundred times and find something new.
 
Becki Battista
So yeah, those are my favorite too. I go out there every weekend and run on those trails because they're just simple and it's kind of like it's my safe place, you know, I just it's comfort to me and it feels like home. And just at the end of the week, it allows me to feel kind of more complete. I come home, even though it's cold out or raining out or whatever, I come back home, have my breakfast and a cup of coffee, and I just feel like I finally accomplished something.I just feel so much better. Like, it's just a wonderful feeling. It's my safe place, my sanctity out there. So, as we kind of wrap this up, I do have one last kind of question that we can and a meld a few things together in… If you had one piece of advice for students or faculty staff or really anyone to get outside and expose themselves to nature, like what would be what would be some advice that you would give them?
 
Katie Whitley
I guess I would want to share that. I feel like the outdoors is for everyone. Like I've always found it to be a very welcoming space. I think that whether that's you experiencing the outdoors by yourself or with a group of people that you know or a group of people that you're trying to get to know better, there are so many things about the outdoors that I feel like bring people together or allow them to kind of sit with their own thoughts. I think a lot of the things many people do, including myself, are geared at making sure that you're not sitting alone with your own thoughts because sometimes life can be really difficult and really stressful. So, I think I like to imagine the outdoors, whatever season it is, whatever it looks like as a space, it's kind of like you were just sharing kind of like a sanctuary and that it's, it's always there to welcome you with open arms if you want to partake in that and that you can engage with it in whatever way feels comfortable or like what feels right for you. So even like what Heidi was sharing earlier, I feel like it allows a good sense of, I guess, like autonomy or control in that way.
 
Heidi Campbell
One thing I would say is to not let fears or other barriers get in the way of just getting outside, that it can be as simple as just stepping outside of your apartment or residence hall and going for a walk. So, it can be just whatever it is you want it to be or need it to be. It is accessible and welcoming to everybody. You know, I think we spend a lot of time in our heads. It's so easy to get in our heads and too much of that isn't good for any of us. And there's something about being outside. It's like it immerses us in all five of our senses, helps us gain perspective that our problems and issues are pretty small. It has just a wonderful, calming and energizing effect on most everybody. And so just to not let those barriers keep you, it doesn't have to be anything elaborate or fancy or require a lot of gear or you have to have certain skills. Just get out in the sunshine, get out in the wind, get out in the rain. You will learn a lot about yourself and also realize that your fears aren't as big as you think they are…Give it a try.
 
Becki Battista
I think that's great advice for any of us, really. We do live in a beautiful country, a beautiful area right around here in the Blue Ridge Mountains and the Appalachian region and even our campus is very striking, too. So, I'm very grateful for where we are. Thank you both for talking to us on this podcast today. We will list some resources from your facility on our site, but I appreciate all of your assistance today, so thank you both Heidi and Katie for joining us.
 
Joy James
We hope you enjoyed listening to Heidi and Katie talk about why they chose to come to App State and learn more about their experiences in the outdoors. Whether you are considering going hiking, mountain biking, or even skiing, think about ways to make it fun.  Bring your must-have-item like snacks and wear something fun like socks that have karmic power. Above all else, just experiment with the outdoors and see what it may bring to you.  After all, the outdoors is for everyone! We want to thank Heidi and Katie for sharing these stories. As we sign off let’s end with a quote from Henry David Thoreau, “I took a walk in the woods and I came out taller than the trees.”
 
We just want to thank all of our interviewees for sharing these stories. And as we sign off we want to end with a quote and encourage you to get outdoors. From Henry David Thoreau, I took a walk in the woods and came out taller than the trees.