Ep.05: Dressing for the Cold (Part 2)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Becki

Welcome to the Appalachian Outdoorosity Podcast, where we encourage you to get outside and keep going outside. Here we will share Appalachian State stories that entertain, inspire and inform listeners about living an active outdoor lifestyle. Each episode features a story with the goal to get you outside and keep you going outside to improve your overall wellness. This podcast is presented by the Hope Lab, where our purpose is to investigate the role of outdoor physical activity, exercise and play on health, the environment and human development. The vision of the Hope Lab is to continue developing the perfect foundation for promoting and supporting outdoor physical activity, exercise and play through interdisciplinary research. Feel free to check us out at hopelab.appstate.edu. Hi, my name is Becki Battista and I am a professor in exercise science at Appalachian State University and a self-proclaimed physical activity addict. On today's episode, we will continue our conversation with outdoor professionals about what to wear when recreating outdoors in the cold and rain. Outdoorosity team member Dr. Joy James, a professor in recreation management, interviews Appalachian State University's outdoor program team who provide more details about types of clothing and the importance of layering, as well as things to consider in a variety of outdoor activities like backpacking and ice climbing. Why have two episodes on dressing for weather outdoors? Because our aim is to have you enjoy the outdoor activity. While discomfort can be part of the outdoor experience, there are ways to lessen being uncomfortable. Dressing for the weather is significant to a person's willingness to continue to try new outdoor activities. And here at Outdoorosity, we are all about getting people outdoors. Let's get to the interviews.

Joy

These are two experts from outdoor programs at Appalachian State University. We have Bob and Valerie. First, we'd like to know, Bob, a little bit about yourself.

Bob

Yeah, so I'm Bob Riddle. I'm originally from southern Ohio, so I grew up in the foothills of Appalachia. I've made my way deeper and deeper here into the mountains over time. Now, kind of in year four of my professional experience here in the outdoors, apart from graduate assistant shifts and working as an undergrad student and outdoors, I'm currently here the coordinator of outdoor programs for Appalachian State University's Outdoor Program at University Recreation. Specifically, some of the things that I do right now is I manage our indoor climbing wall, our outdoor trips program, our broad stone kind of outdoor educational center. And as part of that is our team building challenge course.

Joy

Thank you! Valerie, I think I will go ahead and switch over to you and have you tell us a little bit about yourself before I start asking questions. So give us a little bit of information about who you are, what you're doing, and anything you think's funny or surprising.

Val

Thank you. I am Valerie Kankiewicz and I'm the assistant director for outdoor programs here at App State. In this role, specifically right now, I work most closely with our outing center where we handle all of our gear rentals, trip registrations and items of that nature. In addition, our Bike App program that provides free bike tunings and repairs for the App State community. Overall, I just generally oversee the operations of outdoor programs to make sure that we are flowing smoothly and providing great opportunities for everyone. I have been involved in the outdoors since I was little, but I came from a family that was not very interested in the outdoors. I went to summer camp and really built up my own interest that way and one thing that I think is kind of funny is that I don't really like to watch a lot of TV or movies or music or things like that. So I'm often quite ignorant of a lot of quotes that people will talk about or different things. My first day of my first full time job ever, I was working as an aquatics director and my supervisor said to me, referring to a particular lifeguard of ours, “He's a real David Hasselhoff.” Now, I had grown up in this town and I was like, I recognize that name. I said, “I think I know him. Why would I know him?” And now it turns out he's a famous actor and I didn't know that. So I prefer to spend my time outside and not spend a lot of time with my technology.

Joy

I know a few people like that. Bob, what is your favorite outdoor activity that you enjoy doing? I know you probably have multiple, but if you were to be able to go do something today, what would that be?

Bob

Backpacking. I really got my start backpacking kind of in West Virginia and through the mountains there. It's something that I've always really valued because for the most part it can be pretty low gear intensive. It's certainly a lot of logistical planning, but on a skill level, it offers a wide variety for really anyone to get involved with. It's a great way to connect with folks or disconnect from folks, depending on what you're looking for. So for me, it's backpacking. You know, similar to Val and what she was saying earlier, I don't come from an outdoorsy background originally. I didn't go backpacking until my freshman orientation program. I grew up playing basketball, baseball, football. My original thought of camping was taking your 30 foot family trailer to the county fair and spending a week with farm animals. I'm certainly not a lightweight backpacker. A quote from a student staff colleague of mine when I was just getting into backpacking that has always stuck with me is, “We're not out here to rough it. You know, we're out here to thrive and do the best that we can with each other and with the supplies that we're given.” I got no problem. You know, throw in some tent poles and carrying a bunch of water and a bunch of food to have a good meal outside. So not on the lightweight side.

Joy

I love that you're like, we're here to thrive and not to rough it. And I think often many people think backpacking is roughing it and it's just a different form of camping that gets you out in a different way. And and I love the challenge of being able to carry all that gear. All right. Thank you for explaining that. I am going to ping pong between the two of you. Change it up a little bit, Valerie. So can you tell us what your favorite outdoor activity is? If today you could do whatever you wanted to be doing. What would be your choice?

Val

Ooh, well, that's tough. Somebody I worked with in college leading trip said it best that they were a jack of all trades and a master of none. And I find that defines me. So I really enjoy backpacking. I also really enjoy cycling. I really like winter and outdoor sports. So if I had my option, I would like to go ice climbing. But that's not an option very often. So I'll take cycling or backpacking as well.

Joy

And it sounds like both of you, come from snow areas originally, right? For some reason I have Iowa on my mind. Valerie and Bob, you said Ohio, but it was southern Ohio you're at.

Bob

Yeah, I'm originally from Southeast Ohio, about 45 minutes from the border. Any which direction, south or east you go.

Val

And Joy, you're correct. I went to college in Iowa at northern Iowa and grew up in northern Illinois. I lived in Wyoming for a little bit and between Buffalo and Rochester, New York. So I've seen my fair share of snow.

Joy

And I asked this because I knew my parents were from Iowa, but I grew up born and raised in Georgia. So Snow was an event in Georgia. And to have snow like we have here in Boone, was kind of a new concept to me. And I mean, I've lived in North Dakota, but I didn't understand wearing a hat. That was a new thing to me. It's like people who come from snow know how to play in it, they know how to dress for it. And it didn't stop them from recreating. And that kind of stunned me as a Southerner going, “Why would you tell the snow and ice climb? Doesn't that that sound like it would be a little bit of a challenge?” But, having been in the snow now, I can see why people enjoy that. All right, Bob, so since we're talking about cold weather, how do you typically dress for a workout or backpacking in colder weather?

Bob

Yeah, so kind of a rule and principle. I use and this is going to sound kind of backwards maybe to some folks if they're not familiar with it. But I like to actually dress to be cold during the activity, especially if I'm going to be on something that's going to be multi-day, where I don't have the luxury of, you know, driving home at the end of the evening and getting a hot shower and a hot meal and laying down in the bed. I like the dress cold for the activity. The reason I like to do that is I want to be just comfortable enough I can withstand it, but I want to be cold. So I'm not sweating because after that activity, if I'm going to be camping and I know it's going to be cold that evening, that sweat is going to kind of linger and that moisture is going to, you know, freeze in time. So typical rule of thumb for me is hike cold, camp warm. And so having layers with me, but not necessarily wearing all those layers during the activity. Now during a regular day where I'm not doing multi-day stuff, you know, I'll, I'll just pack on as much or as little clothes as I want knowing I can just simply get in a vehicle at the end of the night or in the middle of the day and go get comfortable anywhere. Some of the other things I like to try and be mindful of is not wearing cotton because cotton will retain that moisture. You know, cotton fibers, if we were to draw them microscopically on a board, look like little macaroni noodles, right? The moisture gets in there and holds on to it, like all that golden liquid in kraft cheese you get and then you just stay cold versus you know, wearing something that's more synthetic, like an under armor or a Nike or any off brand. It doesn't need to be name brand. Anything synthetic is going to help wick away that moisture more easily and kind of keep you drier in the long run and hopefully warmer as a result because of that.

Joy

All right. So Bob let me ask, if you're dressing for cold, what does that mean, one under armor shirt or are you wearing a vest or how do you dress for the cold on a backpacking trip?

Bob

Yeah, I think that's going to be dependent upon each person. You know, for me, I'm a I'm typically a warmer person. I might wear like one layer, synthetic base layer. So like under armor pants, an under armor long sleeve top. And then because I have a backpack on, sometimes I might have a vest but maybe not if I'm doing something pretty extensive that day and not an easier hike., I might not opt for the vest. If I’m doing, you know, some flat trail somewhere I may throw on my extra vest. My biggest encouragement would be, you know, do some day trips on your own. Find out how warm you are, what you can stand then then kind of build that sense of your own baseline around that.

Joy

Thank you. All right, Valerie, how about yourself? How do you typically dress for a workout or your recreational activity in the colder weather?

Val

So much like Bob, I think it's important to kind of dress for the activity. What does that mean? Well, if you're going to be very physically active, you probably should start chilly and then you'll warm up and not have to stop ten, 15 minutes in to take off all these extra layers. And now your base layer, the bottom layer that you're wearing is now soaked in sweat. So I think that helps. But I get cold very easily, so I dress in a lot of layers. So I'm going to start with some sort of base layer that's something synthetic, very close to the skin that can help kind of keep my core warm. And then I'm going to put some layers on top of that. So on a colder winter day, I'm probably going out in a base layer and maybe a fleece over that if it's really cold or especially if I'm maybe sitting around by the creek and enjoying my lunch, I'm going to throw on a down jacket on top of that. Maybe down or synthetic, something lightweight that I can carry easily. That can be expensive, though. Not everybody has one of those lying around. I did not for the longest time. And so just good layers that you can take that are synthetic that you can put on. The down helps a lot because it's lightweight and compactible but it's really expensive. So, depending on your level of activity and how often you're getting out, it might not be something that's worth purchasing for you. Just look for something synthetic that's come a long way in quality and sizes and durability. I think when you think about your bottoms, if it's going to be cold or you're not going to be moving around a lot, that base layer once again and the layer over the top of that, I think it's surprising how warm you can get recreating. When I first started ice climbing in in Iowa, it was often between zero and ten degrees for a high with the wind chills -35. We actually couldn't climb if it got below zero because the ice was it was too cold and it would dinner plate and not work the way that it should. When we're climbing. And I would climb in a base layer and a fleece, and that's when I would climb, I would have gloves on and I had like a base layer and a pair of like the swishy kind of running pants or yeah, I didn't climb in snow pants. Swishy running pants were, were the best option due to mobility. And I would get hot so hot when I was climbing. Now as soon as I came down and I was maybe belaying somebody else, I was throwing out all those layers again. So layers are important. And you talked about hats earlier. I hated wearing a hat. Growing up in the Midwest, never wore a hat unless I was like going sledding for hours. I wasn't going to wear a hat, messed up my hair too much. I went to college and determined that a hat was a necessity to be outside walking around with these excessive wind chills. And I think the biggest thing that I really picked up on was going out on some farms in Iowa late at night, ten, 11:00 at night in January and December. And we would ride the ATVs around to go check trail cams or different things. My friend would always wear two hats and it was amazing what two hats can do when the temperature is around zero degrees and the wind chill significant and you are riding on an ATV. So hats really do make a difference. If you can keep your head warm, the rest of your body will stay warm.

Joy

Yeah, I discovered the same thing in North Dakota first that you could sweat in the snow, which was absolutely absurd to me as a Southerner. Like what? This is cross-country skiing for me. And then the hat thing really helped me. So do you guys have different types of hats like you do gear for different weather?

Bob

Oh yeah. Except where I'm from. I think y'all are referring to what we call a toboggan. So, like a wool hat or a cotton hat that covers the ears? Yeah, I wear, like, a toboggan or something like that. If I'm, like, sitting around outside all day, but my head, like, I sweat through my head very easily if I'm hiking. So typically, like during the day, I might just wear a regular ball cap. To be honest, I also have a lot of hair and my hair is super thick. I constantly when I do get my cut, I have to get it like thinned out it's so thick. So for me, a regular ball cap usually does, and then kind of a toboggan or a warmer winter hat like in camp.

Val

Certainly I went from owning no hats to one hat to too many hats, and I have some really thin hats that I wear when I'm biking and it's cold. I put them under my helmet so it's enough to keep me warmer, especially with that breeze from biking, but it fits under the helmet. Well, and then I have like a fleece hat is really good. Once again that synthetic but fleece, depending on how it's made, it can let alot of wind it, so I also have like a thick wool hat and some of them are fleece lined. So there's definitely different options. I think for the Boone North Carolina region, a decent like fleece hat is probably a good option for being versatile.

Joy

You mentioned something else. When does another factor in some cases, particularly with cycling or if it's a windy or rainy day? So the other thing I just wanted to ask you guys, do you have a preference for rain gear? Do you wear pants when you're backpacking like the rain pants or we've talked about being hot. So what kind of rain gear do you have to keep yourself dry or do you like? Sometimes I find I don't even wear it. I just put dry clothes on later on.

Val

I think it certainly can depend on the temperature. If you're backpacking somewhere really hot and it's raining, you're going to get pretty warm and you're in gear. I do carry rain pants with me most of the time. Personal preference that that I just have found. I enjoyed particularly the convenience of being in camp and being able to be in my dry clothes but like sit anywhere and it didn't matter because I was wearing rain pants. So I have found that to be for me worth the wait when I'm backpacking. I'm not a lightweight backpacker. I definitely like bring all the things that I think are going to be helpful for me as long as I know I can carry the weight and maybe a quick story about the importance of rain gear during bad weather. I was backpacking in New Zealand. We're going up to a mountain. I don't honestly remember what mountain it was. The Rangers had recommended against it that day because of the weather, but we were only there for two days. This was our chance. So there are five of us and we started heading up. It was pouring rain and people were getting really, really hot. So they took off all their rain gear. Now I kept my rain gear on. Having a little different education and background on what we were doing couldn't convince them to do. So we have to turn around and come back down because one of the girls got hypothermia. She had gotten so warm, she took off all our rain gear. But then with the rain, she had gotten so cold, we cut, warm it back up. We had to come back down to go back to the lodge and warmer up.

Joy

Bob, do you have a story about cold weather or rainy weather or weather story that you could share with the listeners?

Bob

Yeah, 2013, 2014. I was leading a trip to Utah and we were actually Southwest Utah in the desert. We were going to be doing the Green and Colorado River backcountry canoeing trip in May. Typically in May it's 90 plus degrees in southwest Utah. For some reason, during this entire trip, there was only one day that didn't rain. It was not when we were canoeing, that's for sure. It was actually about 50 degrees. And so based off the temperatures and planning that we did as a group, a lot of people didn't pack winter or colder weather clothing. And the night before, during our pack out before we put on the river, we actually had a massive rain and lightning storm come in and actually flooded camp and most of the people’s stuff as a result of that, people were pretty ill prepared. We actually had to kind of postpone the trip a little bit and make a leadership decision as a crew. And we put on the river a day later in order to help get people's clothes dried because like Val said, going into an experience where maybe you are getting more wet and being exposed to hypothermia in the situation that she just talked about, we were very well aware that had we put on that day, we would have likely have had multiple people that would have been hypothermic because in canoeing, you're sitting a lot. You can be paddling a lot, but you're you're sitting a lot. And so it's even less active than climbing up a mountain in New Zealand. So for us it was kind of a decision on that. We actually took everyone to a laundry mat and got all their clothes dried before we continued on with that trip.

Joy

I think both these stories illustrate the importance of clothing, but at the same time recognizing that sometimes we have to make decisions based on the need of the group and what's in their best interests. I appreciate hearing the different angles of that. I remember I've been in one where there was a group of us that had dry clothing. I was the group that didn't. And so we literally got all our dry clothes, put it in the tent, and then let the other participants who are wet get our clothing on. So, I mean, I've shared my clothes with people as weird to see someone wearing your clothes around the campsite. It's like, Wait a minute, that's what oh, it's mine. I love that camaraderie and community building that we that we have. I am going to ask a more personal question. Underwear, is that synthetic for you guys as well or how do you guys work that?

Bob

I have multiple different types of underwear. I have synthetic underwear, which I love those specially like in the summer and in the winter, to be honest, I've also had friends who live and die by the no underwear rule. Better dudes. I think it's personal preference with that. I personally have synthetic underwear, but also in the summer. Cotton underwear is not not horrible either.

Val

So I went with everything synthetic initially, but there's a lot of talk about for the female anatomy, how cotton is actually better. And so I still wear my synthetic, but it's something I certainly wonder about at times and think about. I definitely wouldn’t hike in a swimsuit. I know some people do that and it's just thicker and it's a synthetic. But the way that holds moisture in different things can cause a lot more complications. So I do go synthetic, but I can see the argument for cotton or maybe like synthetic with a cotton liner could be helpful as well.

Joy

You know, a lot of times I think people just starting out or kind of like, what do I do? How do I do this? I appreciate your candor and what it comes down to and the discussion that my colleagues and I had and the three of us are having. It really is personal preference depending on the activity that you're doing and then figuring out what your temperature is and what you run and what's in your best interest healthwise. And I think it is important to kind of monitor that as you first starting it out, because you might realize you're not enjoying yourself and then you don't want to do that activity. Whereas if you're dressed appropriately and having a good time, the activity becomes the focus rather than your discomfort.

Becki

Listening to these outdoor professionals Winter and Reindeer preferences makes you really think about what items are most important to have with you when you're active outside from having something you cannot go without to being prepared with layers. Each person provided you with some great insight into how to be best prepared for your activity. I think it's important to think about personal preferences as being comfortable with what you have can also impact what you are doing. Maintaining your core temperature is really a key to staying warm while being active outside. The literature tells us that layering is important to provide insulation and help prevent sweating, overheating, under dressing and staying dry. The colder environment can increase your energy expenditure and cause fluid loss. Synthetic materials like rayon, polyester, nylon and fleece, which are often soft, flexible and lightweight, are great for wicking moisture away and keeping you dry in colder climates. Wool and down are natural options that work well too. In addition, having a hat is important as a lot of heat can be lost through your head. Dressing for weather and outdoor recreation is key to enjoyment. As Bob said, we're not out here to rough it. We're here to thrive.

Joy

So we have this other segment. It's called “The Dirt on Getting Outside.” We ask 3 to 5 questions and I'm going to do this instead of ping pong like I was before. I'm just going to do it one at a time. So Valerie, I will start with you. The first question is in the outdoors, what is one of your biggest fears?

Val

I think one of my biggest fears in the outdoors is the fear I've had since I was a child. I'm more afraid of people in the outdoors than I am of the outdoors. When I would go to summer camp and we'd like sleep outside, I wasn't really scared of the animals or anything or the dark. I was scared that there were like bad people in the woods and around for whatever reason. That's just like this fear of always had. And it's still the thing to this day that that makes me more nervous. I can be out somewhere that's very difficult to get to and that's still my fear. So I always have had that one.

Joy

What is your most embarrassing outdoor moment?

Val

So I think my most embarrassing outdoor moments because there's probably there's been multiple of them and in this particular sense would be, I drink, a lot of water. It's good to be hydrated, though you can also over hydrate, but I then consequently have to go to the bathroom a lot. And that's not always a super feasible option to get off the trail and practice really good LNT (leave no trace.) Or if you're mountaineering, and you're like on a big climb. You don't have a lot of options. So there's definitely been times where I've not gotten out of sight well or off the trail well, and I've had people all of a sudden come along and there I am going to the bathroom, or I know I've had to go to the bathroom in the river because that was the only option. And everybody knows what I'm doing and I’m like, “It's kind of hard to go now.” That's an embarrassing moment in the outdoors.

Joy

A couple of years ago, I went on a trip with outdoor programs and I was so impressed with your student instructors, the leaders, because they did the poop talk and they made it very transparent and actually fun rather than embarrassing or shameful. And like you said, you made me think of that when you're like, I'm in the I'm in the water in the river and everybody knows what I'm doing. And it's kind of like we kind of just go with it. It does open up another way of thinking about going to the bathroom. So thank you for being willing to share that. What is, Valerie, Your must have piece of outdoor gear or equipment that you never leave without. What couldn’t you live without in the outdoors?

Val

A water bottle. And in particular, I like a hydration bladder. That's got the hose and I can just drink water to my heart's content while hiking. It's amazing how quickly I can put three liters down if I've got a hose that can deliver it very easily to me.

Joy

All right. And then here in the Boone area, what's your favorite local outdoor spot?

Val

Favorite local outdoor spot here? This is a tough one. I like water. So any time that I can can get around water. So maybe not one spot in particular. But just like the creeks, Wilsons Creek's got some good swimming holes. Gragg Prong is fairly easy to get to and have a good swim. A cold swim, but a good swim. Wildcat Lake in Banner Elk has a little like swim beach and they have lifeguards there at times. And I think that's a fun like outdoor swim beach location that's closer than Watauga Lake or something of that nature.

Joy

Cool. Thank Valerie. So, Bob, you get the the dirt on getting outside questions next. First question is what is your biggest fear in outdoor settings?

Bob

I think my biggest fear is actually very similar to Val's. So Val has been to New Zealand. I have also been to New Zealand. When we were doing our backpacking portion of our trip, kind of on the Greenstone trek and route also is like hunting territory and we actually were around a lot of hunters that were under the influence of items and wouldn't leave our group alone.

Bob

Actually, for multiple days it almost seemed as if they were following us on the trail at a point. We made phone calls to local wildlife officials to kind of check out these folks’ credentials. So, yeah, I'm with Val. So animals and natural wilderness things that don't necessarily scare me in the way that, you know, some people do and the way that they present themselves at times.

Joy

I completely understand. I’d share more but this is on you guys. So what is your most embarrassing or an embarrassing moment you've had in the outdoors?

Bob

Yeah, this is tough because I feel like I'm a person who is not easily embarrassed, so maybe this is more funny than anything, or a fun just tidbit or story about myself. I don't know how it ever started, but like, you know, JORTS were like always an embarrassing thing, especially like in the last ten years. You think of like your dad wearing jorts out in the front yard with some white New Balances on and it just became a running joke as like student staff back in college that we would jokingly just wear jorts on trip and one day for our multiple day trips I just started packing a pair of jorts and so since like 2012, I have one pair of jorts that has been on every multi-day trip I've ever been on. It is the same pair. My last trip as an undergrad student, I actually wore this jorts the entire trip. So backpacking, whitewater rafting, it just became like this, like living joke that has just become this like traveling story of the jorts.

Joy

That's awesome. All right. So what is your must have piece of outdoor gear that you can't live without?

Bob

So considering, you know, we're talking a lot about outdoor gear and specific to winter, for me, I'm a very warm person, but my feet and extremities get very cold. And for me it is socks...alot of pairs of wool socks. Pro-tip, always keep a pair of like really thick wool socks in your sleeping bag if you're sleeping over night and just only devote them to like sleep. Just putting on that one fresh pair of clean socks at night when you roll into your sleeping bag is like that feel good cozy comfort that just helps put you right to bed.

Joy

Awesome. What is your favorite local spot?

Bob

Val kind of like stole all of mine because I love swimming holes as well. So I would reiterate what Val said with Gragg Prong and then Harper's Creek Falls if I got to go even more local because those can be a bit of a drive up here for some reason, I just really like the Ridge Mountain Carriage Trail because it has some variety, because you can start there at the pond and be on crushed gravel, but eventually make your way up into the pasture.

Bob

And for me, I grew up in a farm in southern Ohio raising cattle and so to sometimes just walk up to some cattle out in the middle of the field, it's kind of nice and takes you back a little bit.

 

 

 

Joy

Cool! I was just out there today hiking. It gives you a quick hike, but without the roots and the rocks and like you said you come across cows and other things. So a couple of things before I wrap this up, I just wanted to mention the listeners. Valerie talked about LNT or Leave No Trace, and I know other programs has some programs on that and we may even do a podcast eventually on Leave No Trace. It is really how to what would you say, how to not behave but ethics for the outdoors. How would you guys say leave no trace? What's a one minute version of Leave No Trace that you would share with the listeners?

Val

Leave No Trace are the the outdoor ethics that you want to participate in when you're recreating outside, whether it's just a park right in your town or community or in the backcountry that will help keep the place more pristine and ready for other visitors to come and have the same enjoyable experience that you were able to have.

Joy

Thank you. My cat is telling me it's time to be done with this. She wants to be fed. So the other part I wanted to give you guys an opportunity to showcase anything you want to say about outdoor programs in terms of getting other students involved or staff or faculty, anything you'd like to be able to share with our listeners?

Bob

So we have our IDP program and what we call our instructor development program. That instructor development program is kind of a yearlong process that kicks off usually in the fall that you apply for to kind of learn to become an instructor and a trip leader with us here at Outdoor Programs, we get through everything, such as the theory behind facilitation and group management and dynamics through risk management and how to plan the logistics of a trip and plan meals and plan routes, as well as all the technical skills that go into activities such as rock climbing, backpacking, whitewater kayaking, whitewater rafting. And those are things that you don't have to have any skill prior coming in to. The instructor development program is beginner like zero to little to the advanced skill possible to get in and be a part of that. We do now have a custom trips program. So you may not want to sign up with a bunch of random folks and go on an open enrollment trip somewhere. Let's say you live together with some folks or you're part of this community that gathers regularly and you've kind of developed that small pod or bubble, you can actually work with us to create your own custom trip in which our guides will help lead you in that expedition.

Val

And gear rentals, too. We're offering what we always have, and we're still offering outdoor equipment rentals. So you want to go have your own outdoor adventure, but you don't own a tent or a sleeping bag or those different items. Or maybe you have gone camping before, but you didn't bring that with you in college because you have limited space. We offer that for an incredibly reasonable rate through Outdoor Programs, so you can check out the gear that you would need for you and your buddies to go have your own experience.

Joy

Thank you. Y'all are an incredible resource at our university. I think a lot of students come here because of the outdoors. So to be able to know that I as a novice can come in and learn as well as rent, and I can also be an expert and learn and rent and work with you guys is really a phenomenal experience. I don't know if you guys noticed in Getting the Dirt on the Outside is really like asking some kind of questions that we don't think about as as people who frequent the outdoors. We enjoy it when they happen. But a lot of people, I think, may not get into the outdoors because they're embarrassed or they don't know what gear they need. So I really, again, appreciate the time you guys took to be able to share a little bit about your own personal experiences, your insights and your professional expertise. So thank you.

Becki

App State’s Outdoor Programs is the place to start or continue your outdoor journey. See our notes for this episode for links to help you with dressing for cold and how to get connected outdoor programs. Thank you for listening to our show today. Remember, life isn't about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain.